# What if we did something different on Sunday morning? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 4, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-did-something-different-on-sunday-morning/680490 "2014-02-04T14:49:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-did-something-different-on-sunday-morning/680490/161 "2014-02-08T08:06:35Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I’ll go one further. Scientific evidence of my god would make me an unbeliever. The god I believe in should not be scientifically testable. I’ll bite, why? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-did-something-different-on-sunday-morning/680490/162 "2014-02-08T08:37:49Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I’ll bite, why? Because if believers admit that evidence is a good thing, they are stuck with the problem that there is never, ever going to be any evidence for their fantasies. They have had to convince themselves that faith is a good thing and not an act of desperation; so good that it trumps all considerations of fact or logic (or often even of morality). Which leads directly to the conclusion that if faith is the ultimate good, then evidence is bad because evidence means that you don’t need to have faith anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-did-something-different-on-sunday-morning/680490/163 "2014-02-08T09:26:14Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I’ll go one further. Scientific evidence of my god would make me an unbeliever. The god I believe in should not be scientifically testable. You have got to be Kidding me right? Like just yanking my effing chain? God himself comes down and Demonstrates Beyond all doubt that he is real, he loves us, and wants us to all be happy. Heathens and unbelievers everywhere are lining up to Join whatever church is the right one and you, YOU become the atheist? You don’t really wonder why atheists think believers are delusional, you just like getting a reaction out of people and stirring up drama. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-did-something-different-on-sunday-morning/680490/164 "2014-02-08T11:18:14Z")
> [@Desert\_Dumpster](#): > > What does all of this have to do with the simple fact that ALL religion is a silly delusion, and that the basic difference between religion and reason is that the latter insists on empirical testing to verify the truth of something, while the former doesn’t, and in fact, rejects empirical evidence if such evidence contradicts its assertions? So, your point is that you can spout error without end, as long as you truly believe that your ultimate point is correct? That sounds pretty much as though you hold the same world view you ascribe to religionists. As I noted, I have no interest in this ongoing feud and I am not taking sides. However, if you are going to post factual errors on various topics, you are going to get corrected. If you do not wish to be corrected, learn your facts. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-did-something-different-on-sunday-morning/680490/165 "2014-02-08T12:08:12Z")
If science can’t fund itself, then maybe it’s not worth studying? If elderly widow women can’t feed themselves, maybe they should just die? Science is best when describing things of the flesh, religion is best when describing things of the spirit. The main difference is that religion is understandable by the ignorant, whereas science typically requires a college degree. This might be shocking to you, but half the world’s population is of below average intelligence. [Baylor University teaches evolution](http://www.baylor.edu/biology/index.php?id=77368). Does MIT teach theology? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-did-something-different-on-sunday-morning/680490/166 "2014-02-08T13:21:59Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > If science can’t fund itself, then maybe it’s not worth studying? Science is the basis of modern technological civilization. It has to put it mildly more than paid for itself. > [@watchwolf49](#): > > Science is best when describing things of the flesh, religion is best when describing things of the spirit. The main difference is that religion is understandable by the ignorant, whereas science typically requires a college degree. There are many more differences than that. And there _are no_ “things of the spirit”. > [@watchwolf49](#): > > [Baylor University teaches evolution](http://www.baylor.edu/biology/index.php?id=77368). Does MIT teach theology? Why should MIT teach theology? It’s a specialty subject not applicable to anything outside of itself, and unless they figure out how to build a god it has nothing to do with the subjects MIT specializes it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-did-something-different-on-sunday-morning/680490/167 "2014-02-08T14:14:29Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > [Baylor University teaches evolution](http://www.baylor.edu/biology/index.php?id=77368). Does MIT teach theology? Because Baylor University teaches fact, you think it only fair that MIT teach fiction? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-did-something-different-on-sunday-morning/680490/168 "2014-02-08T14:18:04Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Science is best when describing things of the flesh, religion is best when describing things of the spirit. Because “the spirit” has never been shown to exist, all descriptions of “the spirit” are equally valid, which means that all descriptions of “the spirit” are equally _in_valid. ---
**Author:** ![turtlescanfly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/65b543/32.png) [@turtlescanfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/turtlescanfly)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-did-something-different-on-sunday-morning/680490/169 "2014-02-08T14:42:48Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > God himself comes down and Demonstrates Beyond all doubt that he is real, he loves us, and wants us to all be happy. Some people believe this has already happened. I read about it in a book… ---
**Author:** ![turtlescanfly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/65b543/32.png) [@turtlescanfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/turtlescanfly)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-did-something-different-on-sunday-morning/680490/170 "2014-02-08T14:59:01Z")
The OP wonders what the effect would be if the religious types stopped going to church and learned more about science, with the implication that they would surely see the error of their ways if only they would educate themselves. I myself wonder what would happen if the science types started going to church and realized there is much more to the reality of our existence than what can be proven in a lab. The ignorance goes both ways. Personally, I have no problem believing in science and believing in God at the same time. And I think that’s the real answer to the OP… I don’t think you’d get a bunch of people rejecting their faith, but just ones who know a little bit more about science and go on believing just the same. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-did-something-different-on-sunday-morning/680490/171 "2014-02-08T15:15:43Z")
> [@turtlescanfly](#): > > I myself wonder what would happen if the science types started going to church and realized there is much more to the reality of our existence than what can be proven in a lab. First, many do go to church. And second, churches have nothing real to teach them. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-did-something-different-on-sunday-morning/680490/172 "2014-02-08T15:33:18Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > You have got to be Kidding me right? Like just yanking my effing chain? > > God himself comes down and Demonstrates Beyond all doubt that he is real, he loves us, and wants us to all be happy. Heathens and unbelievers everywhere are lining up to Join whatever church is the right one and you, YOU become the atheist? > > You don’t really wonder why atheists think believers are delusional, you just like getting a reaction out of people and stirring up drama. Critical1, is it against the rules to accuse another poster if trolling. Please don’t do so again or it will go poorly for you. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-did-something-different-on-sunday-morning/680490/173 "2014-02-08T15:39:53Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Why would you not? That there is no relationship between two measured phenomena is the null hypothesis, and it applies perfectly in this case, the measured phenomenon being my state of being alive and the universe’s state of existing. > Consider a syllogism: > > When humans die, the universe continues to exist. > I am a human. > Therefore, when I die the universe continues to exist. > > I have evidence for both premises, and the conclusion follows from them. Evidence that human death ends the universe, or that I am not human (or super-human, or the only real consciousness, or whatever) is non-existent. > > I know where I’ll stack my chips. So, it’s not scientific proof but a statistical/logical game kinda thingy. Still, far, far away from scientific proof. Why would you stack chips? It’s not like you can cash them. Once again you’re either missing the point or understanding it too much. > [@](#): > > Faith, sure, you can call it that if you wish. It’s not, really, though, as faith is generally defined to include some element of “unshakable belief” (which this isn’t, if you can show me evidence that my death will end the universe, I’ll modify my beliefs accordingly) or “belief that is not based on proof”…while this belief isn’t provable as such because of its conditions preclude that, again there is evidence. > > It’s not the same faith you’re accused of having, as that without evidence, as you’ve informed us (unless you’ve had some personal revelation or divine contact, which would be evidence, just weak evidence). Even if faith included some element of “unshakable belief”, people lose/gain/change faiths all the itme. Believeing without proof is what you do. when believer try the “if x is true and y is true the God exits” it’s never considered enough. > [@Desert\_Dumpster](#): > > If no other single statement made in the history of human discourse proves the lunacy of religious belief, that one does. If I paraphrase correctly, if absolute proof of your god’s existence became evident, you would STOP believing in him/her? > > It’s enough to make one shudder. Such people _reproduce_. Gaah. > [@Sitnam](#): > > I’ll bite, why? > [@Critical1](#): > > You have got to be Kidding me right? Like just yanking my effing chain? > > God himself comes down and Demonstrates Beyond all doubt that he is real, he loves us, and wants us to all be happy. Heathens and unbelievers everywhere are lining up to Join whatever church is the right one and you, YOU become the atheist? > > You don’t really wonder why atheists think believers are delusional, you just like getting a reaction out of people and stirring up drama. Upon review I didn’t write that sentence in the way I wanted. If a god’s existance could be proven through pure science (i.e. equations, quantum effects, dark matter interactions with unripe bananas, FTL barions) then that god isn’t the god I believe in. You will not find Him in the LHC, kickass as it may be. By definition, my god isn’t accessible through pure intelectual/experimental methods. He came to Earth and walked among us 2000 years agos, but I’m always told here that personal experience is (well) short of scientific proof. Of course, if the Second Coming happens tomorrow I’ll be there on my knees worshiping my Saviour. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-did-something-different-on-sunday-morning/680490/174 "2014-02-08T15:55:55Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > By definition, my god isn’t accessible through pure intelectual/experimental methods. He came to Earth and walked among us 2000 years agos, but I’m always told here that personal experience is (well) short of scientific proof. Now you are contradicting himself. If he can actually show up, then his _existence_ (if not his nature) is certainly provable scientifically or otherwise. You could just walk over and poke him. Also, unless you are over 2000 years old nothing that happened back then is part of your personal experience. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-did-something-different-on-sunday-morning/680490/175 "2014-02-08T15:56:58Z")
> [@turtlescanfly](#): > > Some people believe this has already happened. I read about it in a book… Ever read _The Wizard Of Oz_? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-did-something-different-on-sunday-morning/680490/176 "2014-02-08T16:08:33Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > So, it’s not scientific **proof** but a statistical/logical game kinda thingy. Still, far, far away from scientific **proof.** > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Even if faith included some element of “unshakable belief”, people lose/gain/change faiths all the itme. Believeing without **proof** is what you do. > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > By definition, my god isn’t accessible through pure intelectual/experimental methods. He came to Earth and walked among us 2000 years agos, but I’m always told here that personal experience is (well) short of scientific **proof**. (bolding mine)And still you play the stalest religious game in the book-switching the topic from “evidence” to “proof”, then setting the standards for your side childishly low and the standards for those you oppose impossibly high. I have given you solid, verified and repeatable _ **EVIDENCE** _ for my position. Either discuss this solid, verified and repeatable _ **EVIDENCE** _, or admit that you can’t and fling a handful of something _else_ at the wall. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-did-something-different-on-sunday-morning/680490/177 "2014-02-08T16:10:20Z")
> [@turtlescanfly](#): > > Some people believe this has already happened. I read about it in a book… …a book of stories, many of which have anonymous authors, written over a long period of time. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-did-something-different-on-sunday-morning/680490/178 "2014-02-08T16:27:16Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > So, it’s not scientific proof but a statistical/logical game kinda thingy. Still, far, far away from scientific proof. Ok. And? A logical syllogism backed by evidence is more than enough. We use that sort of reasoning every day of our lives. [QUOTE=Ají de Gallina] Why would you stack chips? It’s not like you can cash them. Once again you’re either missing the point or understanding it too much. [/quote] Because if the universe does survive my death, as all available evidence tells me, that informs how I live my life. I can’t cash my own life insurance, either, I have it to take care of my fiance in the event of my death. [QUOTE=Ají de Gallina] Even if faith included some element of “unshakable belief”, people lose/gain/change faiths all the itme. Believeing without proof is what you do. [/quote] If proof isn’t available, then go with the strongest evidence available. [QUOTE=Ají de Gallina] when believer try the “if x is true and y is true the God exits” it’s never considered enough. [/quote] Well, try me. What syllogism can you construct with the conclusion “Therefore God exists”? ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Dumpster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Desert\_Dumpster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Dumpster)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-did-something-different-on-sunday-morning/680490/179 "2014-02-08T16:29:16Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > So, your point is that you can spout error without end, as long as you truly believe that your ultimate point is correct? > > That sounds pretty much as though you hold the same world view you ascribe to religionists. > > As I noted, I have no interest in this ongoing feud and I am not taking sides. However, if you are going to post factual errors on various topics, you are going to get corrected. If you do not wish to be corrected, learn your facts. > > 😛 The poster who has a bug in his ear hasn’t actually proved that I was in error. But discrediting ME wouldn’t discredit the basic idea. And yes, even if I’m completely full of it re these “facts,” the essential premise is still valid. That poster is attempting to discredit the premise by attacking the details. Intellectual cheapo tactic. FACT: religion is nonsense. (I don’t see how you can say that I hold the same worldview as the magical thinkers when I say that the test of whether something is real is whether or not there is evidence for it, and they say that test is how hard you believe in it, ignoring any lack of evidence. Seems like diametrically opposite POVs to me. But you’re the mod–go ahead and twist things 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-did-something-different-on-sunday-morning/680490/180 "2014-02-08T16:54:27Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Critical1, is it against the rules to accuse another poster if trolling. Please don’t do so again or it will go poorly for you. acknowledged. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-did-something-different-on-sunday-morning/680490.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-did-something-different-on-sunday-morning/680490.md?page=10)