# What if we stopped teaching poetry? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2003, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-stopped-teaching-poetry/213091 "2003-11-13T20:47:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-stopped-teaching-poetry/213091/21 "2003-11-14T17:43:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by capacitor \* > \*\*Poetry says so much with so little. > > Prose says so little with so much. > > That is reason alone not to discard poetry offhand. \*\* Poetry lets vapidity masquerade as profundity. I have had to wade through so much versified drivel, devoid of content, that I find the idea that poetry is somehow more innately “meaningful” than prose to be both false and ludicrous, usually spouted by people who are far less “artistic” than they think they are. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-stopped-teaching-poetry/213091/22 "2003-11-14T17:56:36Z")
'ere’s a poem wot I writ, Though my mate Terry sez it’s shit, But I don’t know, cos 'e don’t know, ‘e’s such a bleedin’ stupid git. What was the point again? Oh yes, _“Time spent in English class could be better spent covering more basic and important topics in preparation for life”_ Like what, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Vezer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b38774/32.png) [@Vezer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vezer)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-stopped-teaching-poetry/213091/23 "2003-11-14T18:02:57Z")
What about the basic assumption that once a mind is streched, it will never retain it’s original proportions? You _may_ not remember a bit of poetry, but your being exposed to wordplay and symbolism previously unknown to you has made you a more varied person! The same goes for calculus. You say “oh I don’t remember a bit of Calculus, what was the point in taking it, I don’t use it!”. How wrong you are. Having once viewed those graphs, filled with finding areas under and over it, etc, has broadened your ability to instantly gather information of real life areas. To abandon poetry is too slice off another finger in your education for understanding **life** , not just your trade. We aren’t going to a Vocational-Technical school to be robotic dunces! Let knowledge live! ---
**Author:** ![slu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/74df32/32.png) [@slu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slu)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-stopped-teaching-poetry/213091/24 "2003-11-14T18:08:43Z")
OUtside of some Trvial Pursuit questions and the kick I get out of many limericks, I have no use for poetry. I just don’t get it. If I never even read a poem in my life, I don’t think much would have been different. If people want to study it, make it elective. We should worry more about the fact that many people can hardly speak, write, or perform basic math tasks, then people reading “Rhyme of the Ancient Marnier”. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-stopped-teaching-poetry/213091/25 "2003-11-14T18:23:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Left Hand of Dorkness \* > \*\* > Choose topic matter appropriate for adolescents, not for middle-aged English teachers. Let the Love Song of Alfred J. Prufrock wait: now’s the time for e.e. cummings’s viciously biting misanthropic romantic sonnets. > > Daniel \*\* Say it, sister! Testify! I was going to post against poetry here, but reading others memories brought me back to 9th grade English, and our teacher’s impassioned analysis of “The Raven”, by Poe. I can even recall his voice (if not his name), describing how old EA decided that “more” was the most sonorous of words, and since the poem was to be one of despair, the word “nevermore” became the refrain. Awesome! I can think of no more useful instruction to a high school student than to give them the tools to express their inner cynicism and despair, to get it out of their system. There are also more modern poems by Frost and cummings that can still speak to a young mind. Examples of poetry, however, that reach across the centuries to touch the modern mind are few and far between, and all old poetry is two decades dustier than it was when I was in High School. We must realize that poetry, at least divorced from music, is simply not a vital part of most people’s everyday lives anymore, . Song lyrics ARE currently a vital part of people’s lives, and should be studied more carefully. Poetry, as far as anyone can tell, began as a spoken word form accompanied by music. It was only later that the words came to stand on their own in written form. I think the English education community must realize that the day of the stand-alone verbal poem may be coming to a close, and adjust accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-stopped-teaching-poetry/213091/26 "2003-11-14T18:26:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Vezer \* > Ignorance will be your grave, you stupidly grinning viewer! Ah, yes, what a superior mind you have, calling all who do not bend and spread at anything versified “stupid”. So, then, what next, calling everyone who doesn’t agree with you “poo-heads”? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-stopped-teaching-poetry/213091/27 "2003-11-14T18:32:59Z")
_Originally posted by slu_ > [@](#): > > **"Rhyme of the Ancient Marnier"** Waiter, this cognac, Is dusty and musty, The cork is decidedly dry. Monsieur, I deplore you, So let me implore you, Do drink up, and then say goodbye. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-stopped-teaching-poetry/213091/28 "2003-11-14T18:35:37Z")
Hello, class. Today we are going to analyze the post-existential, pre-post-modern, proto-Derridist use of the comma in a dirty limerick. Our goal in this class is to suck the life out of doggerel to the point wherein you will be sufficiently dried up, pompous, and pretentious to consider it worth your while to take out a lifetime subscription to a literary magazine. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-stopped-teaching-poetry/213091/29 "2003-11-14T18:45:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*Hello, class. > > Today we are going to analyze the post-existential, pre-post-modern, proto-Derridist use of the comma in a dirty limerick. Our goal in this class is to suck the life out of doggerel to the point wherein you will be sufficiently dried up, pompous, and pretentious to consider it worth your while to take out a lifetime subscription to a literary magazine. \*\* Well, of course, you’d have one humungous helluva point, if _that_ was what “teaching poetry” was about (built any strawmen recently?) – look, I was taught mathematics by some pretty feeble minds, intent on sucking all the joy out of the process, it just about ruined it for me, doesn’t mean that mathematics is not fit for teaching in high-school, does it? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-stopped-teaching-poetry/213091/30 "2003-11-14T19:13:19Z")
CECIL FEVER I must down to the boards again, to the message boards and the guys, And all I ask is a smart-ass post and a cruel wit that is sly, And the trolls kick’d and the Mods’ good grace and Cecil’s jokes a making, And a merry tale of TV shows and what’s better: clutch or braking. I must go down to the boards again, where General Questions lie, And in Great Debates, the tempers flare and opinions truly fly; And the words get hot and the insults grow over thoughts of wrong and right; And the loudmouth schmucks get shot to bits when they cannot give a cite. I must down to Café town where the Matrix thoughts are thick; And the typos fly and talk is cheap and wise guys act real slick; They pine for Wilma Flintstone and Betty, Barney’s wife; And some of us sigh and rolls our eyes and say: “Hey, get a life!” The Humble Opinions aren’t so humble as the posters fight for space; And the polls ask dumbass questions, like “what’s your favourite race?”; But it’s in the Pit where my blood runs hot and I dare to try my luck; Because it’s good to laugh at the mixed-up dopes and their obligatory “fucks”. I must down to the boards again, to the vagrant poster’s life, And all I ask is a smart-ass joke dissing some guy’s wife. - Bryan Ekers, with apologies to John Masefield. Now, the irony of this is that I didn’t read “Sea Fever” in high school. My familiarity with it comes from poetry parodies in Mad Magazine. If anything, taking an irreverent approach helps a lot more than a dry “appreciate these brilliant words, you ungrateful stupid brats!” that seems to form the basis of the “ram down their throats” cliché that has been cited a _lot_ in this thread. Clearly, there are just good teachers and bad teachers, and William M. Gaines and I happened to click. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-stopped-teaching-poetry/213091/31 "2003-11-14T19:22:45Z")
IMHO, the problem is not the existence of the teaching of poetry; it is the _way_ in which it is taught, and perhaps the content of _what_ is taught. Those who, it would seem, believe that poetry is worthless “high culture” of a sort that people (esp. kids) are _supposed_ to like, but don’t, are missing the point; poetry is about being given tools to express yourself in an effective manner, and to appreciate such expression in others, and as such is surely a useful thing. Moreover, it is by no means an “elitist” preoccupation, suitable only for the pretentious (consider “rap”). Now much of what is taught as poetry does not stir the soul; then, surely, choose some that does. As a teen, I thrilled to Robert Service (“There are strange things done in the midnight sun …”). ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-stopped-teaching-poetry/213091/32 "2003-11-14T20:05:56Z")
I have to admit, that in reading the pro-poetry arguments I was almost convinced. I thought back to reading some great poems as a child, Poe and “the story of old McGee.” Then I realized that I read those outside of school! I can also remember spending a huge chunk of grade 12 English memorizing the poets our teacher felt were important. I think one of my biggest beef was that we’re told these poems and poets are great. But why? Perhaps its my failure, but I’m tired of being told what’s “great beauty.” Museums are full of expensive paintings that someone else decided were significant. We’re trapped in this belief that old = great. Please remember that I’m not looking for a list of other school topics you’d like to see removed (ie “we should remove algebra because kids don’t like it…”)? What I haven’t seen here is a direct answer to the original “what if we stopped teaching poetry?” I feel poetry makes up a huge amount of the english program from grade 7 to 12, and those resorses could have been spent better. ---
**Author:** ![Humble\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/47e85d/32.png) [@Humble\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humble_Servant)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-stopped-teaching-poetry/213091/33 "2003-11-14T21:18:14Z")
If we stopped teaching it, where would we get our teenage angst poetry fix? [All you naysayers have seen _Dead Poets Society_, right? That is just a pop culture example of how poetry can be effectively taught. Condemning statements like “old=great” condemns whoever made the statement (a teacher), not whatever that old thing was.)] ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-stopped-teaching-poetry/213091/34 "2003-11-14T22:36:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emacknight \* > \*\* > What I haven’t seen here is a direct answer to the original “what if we stopped teaching poetry?” I feel poetry makes up a huge amount of the english program from grade 7 to 12, and those resorses could have been spent better. \*\* Ok, so that’s what you “feel” but I want to know if it is true. How much actual time do students spend on poetry between 7th and 12th grade and does it take away from other more valuable studies? Your two reasons for getting rid of poetry were “they gain nothing from it, few enjoy it.” I honestly don’t know why you’d say they gain nothing from it. English literature classes go beyond spelling, grammar, and how to write a paper. Reading poetry is another avenue for students to exercise their reading comprehension skills and it exposes them to new words or old words used in new ways. They are encouraged to think for themselves when they interpret poems and to express their opinions in class. (Most english classes I took included discussions about poems.) There are poems out there that have had a profound influence on western literature. Homer, Burns, Poe, and Keats are just a few I can think of off the top of my head. 1- “The best-laid schemes o’ mice an 'men Gang aft agley” was refereced in Steinbecks “Of Mice and Men.” Removing Homer, Poe, Burns, Keats, and others from the curriculum would be a disservice to the students. Poems don’t exist in literary vacuum. Poems help students explore the human condition. Love, hate, war, poverty, work, suicide, and almost any other subject is covered by poems. Even Homer’s Iliad written nearly 3000 years ago contains ideas and attitudes relevant to life today. The second part of your arguement that few of the kids “enjoy it” isn’t relevant. Kids often times don’t really know what’s good for them. Which is why the adults are suppose to be in charge. Marc ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-stopped-teaching-poetry/213091/35 "2003-11-14T23:18:38Z")
I tend to dislike poetry. There are exceptions, a few poems and poets I’m ok with and even fewer that I genuinely like. It’s far from my favorite form of artistic expression. But still, the ability to read, understand, and analyze a poem is not worthless. As some people above have said, it’s mind expanding…it opens other avenues of thinking. As important as linear and logical thinking skills are, non-linear, abstract, and lateral thinking are also important and a decent poetry section of a class develops those skills. I don’t see why poetry, literature, grammar, and essay writing are being listed as either/or situations. I know that I had quite a bit of each of those in english classes all the way through school. It’s about balance and scheduling, or the lack of both. The lack of that isn’t a fault of teaching poetry, but a fault of the teacher. I do, however, wish teachers would stop telling students that writing poetry is easy and that if you express yourself in rhyme, it’s a great poem. The glurge that I could have been spared had a few more 9th grade teachers simply taken the time to say “Thank you for the effort, but that’s not a very good poem.” Still, that’s more a complaint with the way poetry is taught than with the idea of teaching poetry in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-stopped-teaching-poetry/213091/36 "2003-11-14T23:31:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MGibson \* > **English literature classes go beyond spelling, grammar, and how to write a paper.** Indeed - you’d have a hard time finding _any_ of those things in a high school English class today. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-stopped-teaching-poetry/213091/37 "2003-11-15T00:08:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MGibson \* > \*\*…Reading poetry is another avenue for students to exercise their reading comprehension skills and it exposes them to new words or old words used in new ways. They are encouraged to think for themselves when they interpret poems and to express their opinions in class. (Most english classes I took included discussions about poems.) > Marc \*\* Let me start by clearing up a misconception here, I in no way mean to _ban_ poetry from schools as if it was some sort of satanic practice. Students will still be free to learn it on their own or as others have sujested study it as an elective or even extra-curricularly. I want it taken out of the _required_ curriculum; and even as a compromise, I think x-number of minutes per week could be spent on _something_ that the teacher wants, which could be poetry, or could be basket weaving. I fully agree with your pro-poetry arguments listed above, but what I want to know is: compared to life now, how would Canada/US be different if it was removed? Can you point to any specific aspects of our culture now that depends on poetry being force-fed to the general public? I’d even like to hear an argument for MORE poetry in class. If its as magical as you sujest why didn’t we get more? ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-stopped-teaching-poetry/213091/38 "2003-11-15T01:37:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*Poetry lets vapidity masquerade as profundity. I have had to wade through so much versified drivel, devoid of content, that I find the idea that poetry is somehow more innately “meaningful” than prose to be both false and ludicrous, usually spouted by people who are far less “artistic” than they think they are. \*\* I agree that anybody can do verse and make it a vapid didatic doggerel, filled with sensory overload, with badly contextual rhyming patterns, I agree. The best poetry does not do such things. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-stopped-teaching-poetry/213091/39 "2003-11-15T01:40:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bippy the Beardless \* > \*\*Sounds nice **capacitor** but since merely removing the word structuring, and a few changes of synonyms will change Poetry to prose I must argue that your logic is false. > That said, poetry does seem to be able to say the same thing as prose in a prettier fashion. \*\* You will have to do more than say “It is false”. Choice of words is most important in poetry, and, unlike prose, in a poem one also has to be mindful not only of context and emphasis, but of the rhythm and sound. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-stopped-teaching-poetry/213091/40 "2003-11-15T01:47:45Z")
Stop teaching poetry. Then you will know that: The bird in the cylindrical open bar container breathes in air hrough its lungs, then as it breathes out, vibrates its vocal chords, resulting in its distictive resonant sound. But will you know why the caged bird sings? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-stopped-teaching-poetry/213091.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-stopped-teaching-poetry/213091.md?page=3)