# What If We Were All Reptiles? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 12, 2012, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-were-all-reptiles/643818 "2012-12-12T09:45:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-were-all-reptiles/643818/41 "2012-12-15T05:39:16Z")
Judging from the last few posts I guess I couldn’t be more wrong! And now I have to admit that I a cracker. Would queef be a word in this world? ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-were-all-reptiles/643818/42 "2012-12-15T06:08:45Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > I’ll take a stab at this. We now are pretty certain that dinosaurs were either warm blooded or operated on gigantothermic principles depending on the species. The ones that were best suited for human like civilization though were warm blooded in the same manner as birds, so there isn’t any reason to assume a limitation to the equatorial tropics. In fact, since we know that many species had insulating feathers, they might well have _avoided_ those regions if they developed in a more temperate zone; the tropics being full of all sorts of dangerous and oversized predators. I think what you may have is a culture that looks much like contemporary herding or ranching peoples. Smaller groups that move about following herds and joining up for periodic meets and festivals. Since they are better equipped biologically than naked humans, there may well be less need for complicated technology and tools. OTOH, Birds exhibit a wide range of vocalizations and they might have extremely beautiful and complex music and language. It is likely that they would also have complex and ritualized social interactions, something again seen commonly in birds. Technology is a toss-up. It would evolve if there was a _need_ for it, otherwise it would only evolve very slowly in a civilization otherwise optimized for the region it exists in. It is possible that competition for space might eventually push social outliers into the forests or other less traditionally hospitable zones, creating a need for (relatively) advanced technologies. Given time, who knows where they might end up? Sorry, I don’t see wings evolving into hands, and I don’t think you’re going to find human-level intelligence without hands. OTOH, the two-legged predators like velociraptor, etc. were developing larger brains. I can see THAT trend continuing into sentience, tool use, etc.. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-were-all-reptiles/643818/43 "2012-12-15T11:26:24Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Sorry, I don’t see wings evolving into hands, and I don’t think you’re going to find human-level intelligence without hands. Birds don’t hold and manipulate items with their wings, they do that with their feet. My parrots are quite dextrous, with opposable digits on both lower limbs. I could totally see a race derived from bird like creatures using their feet the way we use our hands. For things that require two hands their beak holds the item and they use one foot to manipulate it while standing on the other. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-were-all-reptiles/643818/44 "2012-12-15T15:38:13Z")
> [@lemur866](#): > > [bats aren’t bugs!](http://mimosasonthefrontlawn.blogspot.com/2009/02/bats-arent-bugs.html) Lemurs aren’t apes! ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-were-all-reptiles/643818/45 "2012-12-15T16:10:14Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Birds don’t hold and manipulate items with their wings, they do that with their feet. > > My parrots are quite dextrous, with opposable digits on both lower limbs. I could totally see a race derived from bird like creatures using their feet the way we use our hands. For things that require two hands their beak holds the item and they use one foot to manipulate it while standing on the other. That seems a LOT more awkward than the current system. For that matter, I think that’s a good reason why flightless birds aren’t any smarter than flighted ones. Tool-using just doesn’t become all that big a part of your daily life if you have to stand/sit still every time you want to use the item in your hand. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-were-all-reptiles/643818/46 "2012-12-15T17:45:17Z")
The bird that makes and creates tools, and passes on that knowledge: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New\_Caledonian\_Crow](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Caledonian_Crow). As was mentioned, given the right circumstances, it’s possible for some species of birds to show very complex behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Michael63129](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3da27b/32.png) [@Michael63129](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael63129)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-were-all-reptiles/643818/47 "2012-12-15T19:35:48Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > For one, having large brains requires a lot of energy. I think that pretty much requires that a species be omnivorous. Yes, humans can survive as vegans, but that’s only after we’ve developed agriculture and are able to get appropriate nutrion through proper diet. I think in a pre-agricultural society, the need for calories would mean a species has to be willing to consume pretty much anything it can to get the food. Why is this a problem? Not all [dinosaurs](http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/dinosaurs/anatomy/Diet.shtml) were herbivores, and others ate things like insects (also common in herbivorous diets since dinosaurs didn’t check their food for bugs); a few dinosaurs were also omnivorous. ---
**Author:** ![Aquadementia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aquadementia/32/555_2.png) [@Aquadementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquadementia)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-were-all-reptiles/643818/48 "2012-12-15T19:57:26Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Yeah, but you know if we were sorta ‘lizard-brained’ enough to only be attracted to moving food items, think of all the neat gadgets that might exist for non-fresh dining. Like little hook and wire attachments to drag food across the table to stimulate the feeding reflex :D. Man, just that concept alone opens up so many possibilities - like the different qualities of ‘food jiggerers’ you might find in a truck stop vs. a reptile version of The French Laundry. > > Or maybe we’d all be much more healthy, because we’d insist on fresh all the time. No twinkies or fast food in lizard-land. If the food isn’t still kicking it would be regarded with disgust. Like C. J. Cherryh’s _Kif_. > > But I like the first idea better ;). You could go yard fishing. Unless lizard people get so cityfied they only like store bought critters. > [@al27052](#): > > Sorry, I don’t see wings evolving into hands, and I don’t think you’re going to find human-level intelligence without hands. > > OTOH, the two-legged predators like velociraptor, etc. were developing larger brains. I can see THAT trend continuing into sentience, tool use, etc.. I’d feel the same way. I can’t see hands evolving into wings either. Unless I look at a bat. Evolution can be a bit kooky sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-were-all-reptiles/643818/49 "2012-12-16T04:17:57Z")
Imagine a group of those Dinosaurians on a message board imagining what life would be like if a mammal had become the dominant sapient species. Even assuming they guessed that primates were the most likely candidates, how close would they have gotten to us by extrapolating from Bonobos and chimps? ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-were-all-reptiles/643818/50 "2012-12-16T04:36:14Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > The bird that makes and creates tools, and passes on that knowledge: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New\_Caledonian\_Crow](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Caledonian_Crow). As was mentioned, given the right circumstances, it’s possible for some species of birds to show very complex behavior. Crows are extremely intelligent, but I stand by my point. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-were-all-reptiles/643818/51 "2012-12-16T04:40:30Z")
> [@Aquadementia](#): > > You could go yard fishing. > Unless lizard people get so cityfied they only like store bought critters. > I’d feel the same way. I can’t see hands evolving into wings either. Unless I look at a bat. > Evolution can be a bit kooky sometimes. Reread my post, please. I said nothing about “hands evolving into wings”. I said “wings evolving into hands”. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-were-all-reptiles/643818/52 "2012-12-16T05:48:32Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Reread my post, please. I said nothing about “hands evolving into wings”. I said “wings evolving into hands”. It doesn’t make any sense. Raptors and other small theropods had grasping hands, not wings. The tiny species that survived the mass extinction eventually evolved into birds, but the larger, more optimal species suited for development into sapient beings has hands. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-were-all-reptiles/643818/53 "2012-12-16T05:56:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Probably no tits, though, so that would be a bummer… No tits, but man, check out the neck frill on that, uh, chick! ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-were-all-reptiles/643818/54 "2012-12-16T05:59:07Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > It doesn’t make any sense. Raptors and other small theropods had grasping hands, not wings. The tiny species that survived the mass extinction eventually evolved into birds, but the larger, more optimal species suited for development into sapient beings has hands. I’m not sure where you’re going with that, but my point is that there’s a very big difference between going from hands to wings versus wings to hands. I’d say the reason no bird has ever developed anything like hands is because hands developed as a way to better climb and move through trees. Why would something that flies need to climb a tree? Maybe one of the flightless birds might eventually evolve into a tree climber, and then from there into a opposable-thumbs-having tool user, etc.. That’s a pretty circuituous route, though. It’s also highly unlikely, given that flightless birds of the right size aren’t forest dwellers. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-were-all-reptiles/643818/55 "2012-12-16T09:48:10Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > It doesn’t make any sense. Raptors and other small theropods had grasping hands, not wings. The tiny species that survived the mass extinction eventually evolved into birds, but the larger, more optimal species suited for development into sapient beings has hands. [nitpick] Birds are believed to have evolved prior to the Great Dinosaur Extinction, not after. It’s not that the survivors evolved into birds, but rather, those that had already evolved into birds were the survivors. [/nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-were-all-reptiles/643818/56 "2012-12-16T09:54:52Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > I’d say the reason no bird has ever developed anything like hands is because hands developed as a way to better climb and move through trees. Feet! Birds use their feet to manipulate their environment, as I already stated. It doesn’t matter if it’s not the most optimal solution so long as it _works_. Some species of birds have developed dextrous, opposable digits already. > [@](#): > > Why would something that flies need to climb a tree? Because sometimes climbing is less effort than flying? Even though birds can fly there are many who also climb. > [@](#): > > Maybe one of the flightless birds might eventually evolve into a tree climber, and then from there into a opposable-thumbs-having tool user, etc.. That’s a pretty circuituous route, though. It’s also highly unlikely, given that flightless birds of the right size aren’t forest dwellers. I don’t get this obsession with the notion that “tree climbing” is somehow essential to intelligence. Just because that’s how _we_ did it does not mean that is the only route to sapience. Likewise the notion that the wings have to evolve into hands somehow - no, they don’t. Plenty of birds use their feet to grasp and manipulate things. Flightless birds are actually poor candidates to develop “hands” as their forelimbs seem inevitably to atrophy into uselessness and their hind limbs then specialize for transportation. Flying birds, on the other hand, specialize their forelimbs for transportation and their hind limbs retain a more generalized configuration suitable to multiple task, such as standing, walking/hopping, _and grasping_. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-were-all-reptiles/643818/57 "2012-12-16T16:18:24Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Feet! Birds use their feet to manipulate their environment, as I already stated. It doesn’t matter if it’s not the most optimal solution so long as it _works_. Some species of birds have developed dextrous, opposable digits already. > Because sometimes climbing is less effort than flying? Even though birds can fly there are many who also climb. > I don’t get this obsession with the notion that “tree climbing” is somehow essential to intelligence. Just because that’s how _we_ did it does not mean that is the only route to sapience. Likewise the notion that the wings have to evolve into hands somehow - no, they don’t. Plenty of birds use their feet to grasp and manipulate things. Flightless birds are actually poor candidates to develop “hands” as their forelimbs seem inevitably to atrophy into uselessness and their hind limbs then specialize for transportation. Flying birds, on the other hand, specialize their forelimbs for transportation and their hind limbs retain a more generalized configuration suitable to multiple task, such as standing, walking/hopping, _and grasping_. Are you actually saying it’s equally likely that birds would develop sentience as primates? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-were-all-reptiles/643818/58 "2012-12-16T17:36:41Z")
RE: The OP’s self annihilation musing, I’d tend to think an emotional and irrational species such as ourselves would be much more likely to bring about such an event when compared to a coldly calculating and amoral reptilian people. Or I suppose you could argue that they would disregard mass death as long as they think their side can come out ahead so war would be more common. But presumably they’d want something left behind to actually conquer. Maybe they’d have figured out the benefits of mutual cooperation earlier than we did. It’s a shame we probably won’t encounter alien intelligences in our lifetimes. I’ve always wondered how much of our thought processes or logic are universal to being a sapient creature using game theory or just us being quirky apes who play dress up. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-were-all-reptiles/643818/59 "2012-12-17T02:35:29Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Are you actually saying it’s equally likely that birds would develop sentience as primates? Well, we only have a sample of one sapient species so it’s a little hard to be sure, but if we rewound time and ran history again… sure, why not? Many bird species are social, some are known to be problem-solvers, they can manipulate objects, many species have lifespans comparable to ours, are capable of learning… Why not? ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-were-all-reptiles/643818/60 "2012-12-17T04:21:51Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Well, we only have a sample of one sapient species so it’s a little hard to be sure, but if we rewound time and ran history again… sure, why not? Many bird species are social, some are known to be problem-solvers, they can manipulate objects, many species have lifespans comparable to ours, are capable of learning… Why not? Besides the tool-using problems, birds, by nature of needing to be light, have small brains. That’s kind of a big problem, there. I can see upright dinosaurs eventually evolving tool use and sentience, but they’d need to be warm-blooded. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-were-all-reptiles/643818.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-we-were-all-reptiles/643818.md?page=4)