# What if William the Norman had not conquered? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 5, 2011, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-william-the-norman-had-not-conquered/598684 "2011-10-05T14:30:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-william-the-norman-had-not-conquered/598684/1 "2011-10-05T14:30:29Z")
Suppose, in 1066, Harald Hardrada of Norway had for whatever reason decided not to invade England that year. Harold Godwinsson, not worn out with defeating Harald, could have faced William with a fresh force and, perhaps, prevailed. But . . . 1066 is supposed to be this all-important historical date . . . But would it really have made any difference to English or world history, if post-1066 England had been ruled by Anglo-Saxon kings instead of Anglo-Norman kings? How different were their cultures anyway, really? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-william-the-norman-had-not-conquered/598684/2 "2011-10-05T15:22:43Z")
Another question which can’t be answered, at all. The whole history of England, and to some degree the world, would be different. In the short term it would be mean an England with a somewhat different culture, no massive French influence in England, and none of the semi-reforms he brought in. Also fewer cool castles, less oppression, and probably fewer wars with France later on. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-william-the-norman-had-not-conquered/598684/3 "2011-10-05T16:39:06Z")
It all depends on how many butterflies were accidently crushed at the Battle of Hastings. If nothing else, it would have made a huge difference to the English language, which incorporated a huge number of French words after 1066. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-william-the-norman-had-not-conquered/598684/4 "2011-10-05T17:08:28Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > . . . no massive French influence in England . . . I dunno, France cast a long cultural shadow on its neighbors. That’s like saying there’d be no massive English influence in Ireland – which there would be, in any timeline that includes England, even if Henry II and his successors decided to leave the island alone politically. But it would make a clear difference – in medieval European politics, if not longer-term – if England were ruled by Saxon kings who did not, also, hold massive territories in France, and were not therefore always involving England in wars to build or defend their Continental empire. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-william-the-norman-had-not-conquered/598684/5 "2011-10-05T17:45:06Z")
You’d be substituting English entwinement with Scandinavian politics for English entwinement with French politics, I think. England still wouldn’t be an isolate. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-william-the-norman-had-not-conquered/598684/6 "2011-10-05T18:09:01Z")
We could probably be able to read Chaucer a lot easier. Oh wait, would Chaucer have even been Chaucer? Well, we probably could be able to read _Beowulf_ a lot easier. Not real easy, but easier. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-william-the-norman-had-not-conquered/598684/7 "2011-10-05T18:32:10Z")
A far more Scandinavian England? No Hundred Years War? Maybe far slower nation building for both England and France (one major advantage both countries had over their neighbours)? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-william-the-norman-had-not-conquered/598684/8 "2011-10-05T19:04:19Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You’d be substituting English entwinement with Scandinavian politics for English entwinement with French politics, I think. England still wouldn’t be an isolate. Why would Saxon England be entwined in Scandinavian politics? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-william-the-norman-had-not-conquered/598684/9 "2011-10-05T19:27:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why would Saxon England be entwined in Scandinavian politics? Because it already was? You recall that just one generation before Hastings, the English kings (like Cnut) were _also_ Kings of at least Denmark as well (sometimes Norway and bits of Sweden too). This level of connection continued into the House of Wessex - Harald Godwinson’s mum was a Swedish noble, Edward the Confessor’s wife Edith was half-Danish, etc. The Saxon nobility was deeply interrelated with the Scandinavian lines. Also some Polish. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-william-the-norman-had-not-conquered/598684/10 "2011-10-05T19:29:34Z")
Whatever other side affects it would have had, it would have meant he would still be known to history “William the Bastard”. Albeit only to historians of obscure Norman noblemen. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-william-the-norman-had-not-conquered/598684/11 "2011-10-05T19:43:12Z")
Maybe he wouldn’t have been so fat when he died that trying to close the sarcophagus lid popped him? (Admittedly, the warm weather had encouraged a certain expansion.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-william-the-norman-had-not-conquered/598684/12 "2011-10-05T20:40:31Z")
There probably wouldn’t have been a George W. Bush, and no Iraq War. ---
**Author:** ![clnilsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecccb3/32.png) [@clnilsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clnilsen)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-william-the-norman-had-not-conquered/598684/13 "2011-10-05T21:02:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > There probably wouldn’t have been a George W. Bush, and no Iraq War. Fixed point in time. Can’t be changed. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-william-the-norman-had-not-conquered/598684/14 "2011-10-05T21:32:50Z")
The Norman Conquest brought England into the European mainstream. England had been seen as a place in the vicinity of Europe rather than a part of Europe, like Ireland or Scotland or Scandinavia or Russia. The Conquest created a connection between England and France and made England a part of European politics and culture. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-william-the-norman-had-not-conquered/598684/15 "2011-10-05T22:07:10Z")
According to _The Story of English_, the English language today would probably be very similar to modern Dutch. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-william-the-norman-had-not-conquered/598684/16 "2011-10-05T22:27:35Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > According to _The Story of English_, the English language today would probably be very similar to modern Dutch. Or Spanish, depending on which way the wind blew, if you catch my drift. When McNeil wrote that, he was assuming that there would be no significant foreign influence/conquest, which is a pretty big assumption. Still, Dutch is the closest Germanic language to English, so without any foreign influence, it would probably be much more mutually intelligible with Dutch than it is today. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-william-the-norman-had-not-conquered/598684/17 "2011-10-05T22:56:51Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The Norman Conquest brought England into the European mainstream. England had been seen as a place in the vicinity of Europe rather than a part of Europe, like Ireland or Scotland or Scandinavia or Russia. The Conquest created a connection between England and France and made England a part of European politics and culture. Did the concept of “Europe” even exist then? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-william-the-norman-had-not-conquered/598684/18 "2011-10-05T23:04:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > When McNeil wrote that, he was assuming that there would be no significant foreign influence/conquest, which is a pretty big assumption. Well . . . If England had not, from 1066, been part of a larger France-based empire, would it have been stronger or weaker in defending itself from other invaders? And, would Saxon kings of England take the trouble to conquer Wales and Scotland and Ireland? Was conquest part of their culture as it was of the Normans’? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-william-the-norman-had-not-conquered/598684/19 "2011-10-05T23:56:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Was conquest part of their culture as it was of the Normans’? The Romans certainly thought so :p. I don’t see where the Anglo-Saxon English were any less warlike than the Normans and it has been argued ( in analyses of the contest at Hastings ) that they weren’t particularly inferior militarily, either. At least overall - obviously they were less cavalry-centric, but Hastings was a near thing and appears on balance to have been decided by factors other than superior Norman military prowess. As this [poor horse can perhaps attest](http://cache-media.britannica.com/eb-media/77/13177-004-C6966659.jpg) ( here you see a Saxon housecarl splitting the head of a Norman charger - I’ve always been impressed by that image ). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-william-the-norman-had-not-conquered/598684/20 "2011-10-06T00:22:42Z")
I have read that in the 18th Century, a kind of political myth emerged – I think Jefferson believed it – that there was this substantially democratic pre-Norman Anglo-Saxon society, with its [hundreds](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_(county_subdivision)) and its [Witenagemot,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witanagamot) which the Normans suppressed with their Continental feudalism and royalism – so everybody who fought to expand the power of Parliament against the Crown (or, for the independence of the Colonies) was really fighting to “restore” the ancient Anglo-Saxon liberty. Was there anything at all to that? Put another way, would the constitutional development of non-Norman England have been any more democratic, in any sense? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-william-the-norman-had-not-conquered/598684.md?page=2)