# What if you are wrong? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 12, 2002, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-you-are-wrong/103221 "2002-04-12T13:18:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ummm.yeahh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ummm.yeahh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ummm.yeahh)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2002, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-you-are-wrong/103221/41 "2002-04-12T18:59:00Z")
\*\* > [@](#): > > Well you can go with anecdotal evidence if you want, but us atheists want lot more more proof of God than that. \*\* Of course you do and that is fine. I refuse to believe that this these stories worked out by chance. I’m not even saying this has to be the “Christian” God. But, to me, it is evidence of something greater than I. \*\* > [@](#): > > Did you ask Jim if he’d ever prayed to God and got no response? \*\* By “no response” do you mean God didn’t say yes or didn’t answer at all? Do you ever tell your kids “no” or “wait”? Your kids may not think it’s fair but I’m sure you would always do what’s in their best interest. (I’m assuming you have kids. If not, I apologize.) \*\* > [@](#): > > Are you saying God will always answer prayers? \*\* Yup. 😃 See above answer for details. ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2002, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-you-are-wrong/103221/42 "2002-04-12T19:03:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kabbes \* > \*\ ***dreamer** that story about the bible group in a “far off land” is utter made-up glurge. It did the e-mail rounds a few years ago set in a variety of countries. > > It could well instead just have well concluded as it would do and has done many times in real life: in a full-bloodied massacre. > > pan \*\* OK, maybe your right - it was just a story (I couldn’t find a site 🙂 ), But I still believe there are people who would stand there knowing death was imminent, and still not denounce their belief in Christianity. **yojimbo** - the only thing I’m denying is the ability to believe that good-natured, loving people like you, (insert smiley) truly believe in nothing. **Polycarp** I will do a search on your name and I’m sure I will find the man to be a highly intelligent, respected man as yourself 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2002, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-you-are-wrong/103221/43 "2002-04-12T19:57:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Puzzle Boy \* > Athiests, what if you are wrong? What if there is a God and after you die there is a Heaven and Hell? Say, by not believing in God you don’t go to heaven and end up wasting away in Hell for eternity. You mean, stay in Heaven with a God that demands I follow his every directive, or burn in Hell with independent-minded folks like Ghandi, Thomas Jefferson, and Albert Einstein? C’mon, this is a no-brainer. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2002, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-you-are-wrong/103221/44 "2002-04-12T20:11:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dreamer \* > **The men then put down their guns and said they only wanted to pray with true believers and that was their way of finding out who the real believers were.** I’ve heard that glurge before and I thought then (as I do now) that any sick freak who would do that is probably not a “real believer” him/herself. (Plus, shouldn’t you want “unreal believers” around? Isn’t being around “real believers” part of the way their belief becomes more real?) To answer the OP, if I’m wrong, and there is nothing after I die - I won’t be around to care. In the meantime, my faith has given me inner peace, joy, other intangibles that I’m ridiculously thankful for. I also think it has made me a better person than I would have been without it. So, the wager works for me. ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2002, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-you-are-wrong/103221/45 "2002-04-12T20:39:35Z")
The thing about Pascal’s Wager in all its forms is that it pretty much invites hypocrisy. If you don’t believe, you should pretend that you do. I personally find people who would do that to be less worthy of reward than those who stand by what they really believe (even if someone tries to convince them that lying will get them something after they’re dead). To put it another way, if a gunman came into a room and said he’d shoot anyone who said the _weren’t_ a Christian, you’d still have to respect those that stood up to him (whether they were doing it because they were Wiccan, Muslim, Hindu, or atheist). So, to answer the OP, yeah, I’d be okay with that. Of course, as a rational man, I’m not unwilling to change my position in the face of convincing proof. But I’m not going to change in an attempt to fool some supernatural entity who should know what I really think, either way. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2002, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-you-are-wrong/103221/46 "2002-04-12T23:21:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Puzzle Boy \* > **As far as the judgement of God how do you know that you will be judged on your merit and not something else?** How do you know what you will be judged on? As a non-believer, you do these things to make both your and your fellow man’s life more rewarding, not because a god told you to. Many agnostics/atheists follow sort of a [Humanist](http://www.americanhumanist.org/) philosophy. The most “Christian” person I’ve ever met was an agnostic. > [@](#): > > **This "Atheist’s Wager seems kind of odd. If athiest don’t believe in a God why would they concern themselves with how they will be judged and how would they know the criteria which will be used to judge?** I’m more concerned with what affect I have on my fellow man than whether some supernatural being is happy that I kneel on his altar. If there is a God, and he has a problem with that, then I wouldn’t worship him even if his existence was proven beyond a doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Kalashnikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@Kalashnikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalashnikov)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2002, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-you-are-wrong/103221/47 "2002-04-12T23:59:12Z")
I think we’re getting off topic here, but, > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by erislover \* > \*\*Not having a God just means that we have no stone tablets to refer to for our understanding of “good”, “correct”, and their opposites such as “evil” and “wrong”. It doesn’t mean that there is no such thing as “evil” or “wrong”. Furthermore, the author seems to think that because we, as humans, can find no absolute standard, that we must therefore find all standards “equally correct” \*\* This is one of the things that bothers me most about some Christians. They say that because I am an atheist I therefore must have no morals at all. They say only way anyone can know that anything is right or wrong is their god telling them so. Some of them actually admit that if it weren’t for that, they would be out robing and raping and murdering etc. etc. And they say **I’m** immoral! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-you-are-wrong/103221/48 "2002-04-13T00:45:31Z")
I don’t deny there is a god just don’t believe there is anything of the sort. Not one bit of my life experience, knowledge and observations even hints at a higher power IMO so I don’t need to deny something that just doesn’t exist IMO. From my POV you are the one denying stuff not me > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by yojimbo_ > I don’t deny there is a god just don’t believe there is anything of the sort. Not one bit of my life experience, knowledge and observations even hints at a higher power IMO so I don’t need to deny something that just doesn’t exist IMO. From my POV you are the one denying stuff not me I have to agree with yojimbo on this one: How can I deny the existence of God if I don’t believe one exists? Perhaps a more valid question would be this: If I become a Christian to play it safe (in case there was a hell), would my faith be sincere enough to keep me out of hell? It seems to me that this conversion based on fear of after death consequences is not really a conversion at all. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-you-are-wrong/103221/49 "2002-04-13T00:47:10Z")
That was strange… I swear it did not look like that when I submitted it! ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-you-are-wrong/103221/50 "2002-04-13T04:20:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kabbes \* > \*\*If I’m wrong and yet yet other of Christianity are right then I will spend eternity in purgatory. \*\* Just a nitpick: No one ever spends eternity in Purgatory, and only those who are headed to Heaven are ever in Purgatory. I won’t presume to say where you’re going, but if its not Heaven (which your post presupposes its not), then you won’t see Purgatory, either. There are also a few random Christian groups that believe Hell is temporary, and that after a time of punishemtn, everyone is saved, but I can’t think of the name of such a group at present. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-you-are-wrong/103221/51 "2002-04-13T04:26:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kirkland1244 \* > \*\*There are also a few random Christian groups that believe Hell is temporary, and that after a time of punishemtn, everyone is saved, but I can’t think of the name of such a group at present. > \*\* The Mormons, for one, I believe, but there are probably LDS dopers who can either confirm that belief or not. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-you-are-wrong/103221/52 "2002-04-13T16:58:47Z")
> [@](#): > > This is one of the things that bothers me most about some Christians. They say that because I am an atheist I therefore must have no morals at all. They say only way anyone can know that anything is right or wrong is their god telling them so. Some of them actually admit that if it weren’t for that, they would be out robing and raping and murdering etc. etc. > > And they say I’m immoral! Hey, **Kalashnikov** , that’s one of the greatest proofs of God’s existence and omnibenevolence – by existing and laying down those laws, He’s stopped them from all that evil!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-you-are-wrong/103221/53 "2002-04-13T21:34:54Z")
As an athiest my position is I’m expecting oblivion, and if I’m wrong, I’ll hope God’s as compassionate as He’s made out to be, and if so I expect I’ll love Him instantly, and get let off. Oh, and I try and be good for inarticulable reasons. Unfortunately, that’s not what a lot of people think can happen. There’s a story in the bible of a man who sinned all his life, went to hell, begged God (or someone) to let him warn his friends and family and was told that the bible is warning enough. Of course, Jesus was much more recent then, but still. (I think he god taken a drop of water by a guy in heaven). So, I don’t know. Shade Hoping it all turns out OK for everyone since 1982. ---
**Author:** ![Edlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8797f3/32.png) [@Edlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edlyn)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-you-are-wrong/103221/54 "2002-04-14T06:04:04Z")
Most of you don’t know me since I post so rarely, but I would like to provide my comments about this particular subject. **Puzzle Boy** , I wonder how many of you have shared the intimacy of being with another person during the last hours and moments of their life here on Earth. Have you experienced this? On the 16th of this month it will be 16 months since we lost our little grandson, Dawson, to a rare form of brain cancer. He was only 19 months old. I wish I could find the words to describe to those with little or no belief in God what our families experienced during the following year and 10 days after his diagnosis, not only with him, but with the other children we came to know. I think **Shade** will love Him instantly. You see, I was with Dawson those last hours and moments and witnessed when Dawson saw Him. I was so in awe I couldn’t speak when I witnessed the serene peace wash over his body and then saw the rapturous joy _beaming_ from his face, without him even moving a single muscle. For those of you who have heard Mercy Me’s song, _I Can Only Imagine_, it begins to capture what I saw on Dawson’s face. And no, I will never question or doubt my belief in Him. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![One\_Cell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e95f7d/32.png) [@One\_Cell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_Cell)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-you-are-wrong/103221/55 "2002-04-14T06:39:17Z")
As a staunch atheist, it is a fact of my life (like earth is round, not flat) that such concepts as God, Heaven and Hell are a bunch of fairy tales created and believed by some humanoids that are afraid of dying. As Woody Allen said, I am not afraid of dying, I just don’t want to be there when it happens. (like in my sleep?) The day I die, all those fairy tales will also disappear as my brain will no longer be functioning to entertain certain humanoids’ hallucinatory illusions such as God, heaven or hell. So, don’t worry. The possibility of “being wrong” will not even arise. The earth will not turn from sphere to flat. In the meantime, while I am alive, I assure you that I will NEVER be proven wrong. Now, \*\* Puzzle Boy\*\*, I suggest you go and find a cure for your fear-of-death problem. Maybe you have already found your cure by joining the herd of God loving, Bible waving crowd. In that case, what is your point in posting shallow, pointless, absurd, trashy and intellectually asinine questions. I am angry with myself that I even bothered to open this silly thread and read so far. But, what the heck, now that I wasted all this time, I’d better get even by posting a well deserved reply. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-you-are-wrong/103221/56 "2002-04-14T08:20:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dangerosa \* > > Hey, what about me…! > > Non-Christian non-atheist Unitarian Universalist . Woo hoo! UU’s rule! 😃 Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-you-are-wrong/103221/57 "2002-04-14T11:20:49Z")
> [@](#): > > In the meantime, while I am alive, I assure you that I will NEVER be proven wrong. Nor will I. > [@](#): > > The day I die, all those fairy tales will also disappear as my brain will no longer be functioning to entertain certain humanoids’ hallucinatory illusions such as God, heaven or hell. Hmmm… Believe me, after years here at Straight Dope, I understand that atheists can develop exemplary morality without recourse to any absolute standard. But in your case, I’m flummoxed. Most atheists whom I’ve encountered here — like Gaudere, Spiritus, Glitch, et al, each with a keen sense of ethics — concede that we people of faith are not hallucinating. If you believe that we are indeed hallucinating, then how can you possibly respect us or our opinions? And if you don’t respect us, then why would you not behave amorally, such that your every decision is strictly a motor decision of the brain, insuring your dominance and prosperity no matter at what expense to others? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-you-are-wrong/103221/58 "2002-04-14T13:03:10Z")
Libertarian, if I told you I talked to an invisible magic creature daily, and that it told me how to live, how seriously whould you take _me_ ? What if I told you that said invisible magic creature would hurt you terribly if _you_ didn’t start talking to it, too? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-you-are-wrong/103221/59 "2002-04-14T13:07:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Libertarian, if I told you I talked to an invisible magic creature daily, and that it told me how to live, how seriously whould you take me ? You, Czar? Not very. > [@](#): > > What if I told you that said invisible magic creature would hurt you terribly if you didn’t start talking to it, too? I’d probably start a pit thread parodying heavy handed mods. ---
**Author:** ![Kalashnikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@Kalashnikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalashnikov)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-you-are-wrong/103221/60 "2002-04-14T13:39:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*If you believe that we are indeed hallucinating, then how can you possibly respect us or our opinions? And if you don’t respect us, then why would you not behave amorally, such that your every decision is strictly a motor decision of the brain, insuring your dominance and prosperity no matter at what expense to others? \*\* :sigh: See what I mean? Anyone who doesn’t have some invisible being telling them what to do is assumed to be amoral. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-you-are-wrong/103221.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-you-are-wrong/103221.md?page=4)