# What if Zizek is wqrong, and China and Russia do become fully democratic ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2015, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-zizek-is-wqrong-and-china-and-russia-do-become-fully-democratic/737003 "2015-11-08T12:35:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-zizek-is-wqrong-and-china-and-russia-do-become-fully-democratic/737003/21 "2015-11-09T01:12:17Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I’m _not_ by any means a fan of Freedom House, quite the contrary, but their general assessment seems to be that the world has becoming _less_ free since the early to mid 1990s, not more free. There was a massive wave of moving towards liberal democracy around 1990 (in Africa, Latin America, eastern Europe and the Russosphere). Since then there has been a gradual move back towards authoritarianism in the Russosphere, and to a lesser extent in some Latin American and Eastern European countries (Venezuela, Hungary, etc…). Africa has too many countries for me to be sure what the trends are, but one of their ‘model’ liberal democracies was Mali, which was overthrown in the aftermath of the Libyan civil war. Now, I did notice that the head of Freedom House was the ex-head of the CIA. Wasn’t it his job, in some sense, to make sure that any democratisation around the world didn’t succeed so well that it threatened to displace the US ? I wasn’t aware that South America was reversing gains, i was under the impression that it gets more successful but I don’t know much about it and South America doesn’t really get the headlines here. Did you mean this ? > **[Discarding Democracy: Return to the Iron Fist](https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2015/discarding-democracy-return-iron-fist)** ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-zizek-is-wqrong-and-china-and-russia-do-become-fully-democratic/737003/22 "2015-11-09T01:48:20Z")
I’m reading through this freedom House piece but it just looks partisan, with a lot of airbrushing. For instance it says > [@](#): > > In Syria, the civil war was originally sparked by the regime’s attacks on demonstrators who were protesting the torture of students accused of antigovernment graffiti. …which is one view of things… Leaked diplomatic [cable](http://www.truth-out.org/progressivepicks/item/33180-wikileaks-reveals-how-the-us-aggressively-pursued-regime-change-in-syria-igniting-a-bloodbath) from 2006 says > [@](#): > > We believe Bashar’s weaknesses are in how he chooses to react to looming issues, both perceived and real, such as the conflict between economic reform steps (however limited) and entrenched, corrupt forces, the Kurdish question, and the **potential threat to the regime from the increasing presence of transiting Islamist extremists**. This cable summarizes our assessment of these vulnerabilities and suggests that \*\* there may be actions, statements, and signals that the USG can send that will improve the likelihood of such opportunities arising\*\*. …which is a different take on things. Then on internet freedom it says > [@](#): > > "For example, officials in Ecuador increased online monitoring in 2014, hiring firms to remove content deemed unfavorable to the government from sites like YouTube and invoking the 2013 communications law to prosecute social media users who were critical of the president. Out of all the countries curtailing freedom of the internet I doubt if it’s coincidence that they write about the one harboring Assange. The world freedom map is handy, though. And it says that the number of free countries has increased since 1984 but has stopped increasing - which I think just reflects the exiting of the Soviet Union. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-zizek-is-wqrong-and-china-and-russia-do-become-fully-democratic/737003/23 "2015-11-09T01:52:42Z")
…so Zizek’s pessimism would be right on Russia, but China is loosening up according to Freedom House - which goes against his thesis somewhat. But those dark parts of the map represent areas in which free markets and Western democracy will have to penetrate in order to bring about global freedom, yes ? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-zizek-is-wqrong-and-china-and-russia-do-become-fully-democratic/737003/24 "2015-11-09T18:27:15Z")
And suddenly, world business will be much harder to conduct because we all have to learn Mandarin ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2015, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-zizek-is-wqrong-and-china-and-russia-do-become-fully-democratic/737003/25 "2015-11-10T22:07:48Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > …so Zizek’s pessimism would be right on Russia, but China is loosening up according to Freedom House - which goes against his thesis somewhat. > > But those dark parts of the map represent areas in which free markets and Western democracy will have to penetrate in order to bring about global freedom, yes ? No, Zizek’s pessimism regarding Russia is not justified. Russia will probably become more authoritarian after Putin shuffled off this mortal coil, but there’s a decent chance it turns to the authoritarian left (I.e. the Communists) rather than the authoritarian right. I’m sure Zizek (and I would agree with him) would Favour that outcome. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-zizek-is-wqrong-and-china-and-russia-do-become-fully-democratic/737003/26 "2015-11-11T01:30:03Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > A government that reflected the will of the Chinese people might be less cautious and more inclined to do something rash like invade Taiwan. There are a lot of Chinese with attitudes towards Taiwan that I consider hostile. However, they developed these ideas in a nation, the PRC, where the idea of Taiwan being its own country is [censored](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Shield_Project#Censored_content). With freedom of speech, the press, and the Internet, there still would be people who wanted to conquer Taiwan. But, with friends of Taiwan allowed to make its case, I’d expect some militaristic opinions to moderate. Also, a democratic mainland government wouldn’t need me to suggest starting up a Chinese Commonwealth of Nations modeled on the [British Commonwealth](http://thecommonwealth.org/about-us) – that is, a free association (free to join, free to withdraw) of sovereign states dedicated to democracy and human rights. I think Taiwan would join that, and this should lessen pressure from the rash jingoists you mention. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-zizek-is-wqrong-and-china-and-russia-do-become-fully-democratic/737003/27 "2015-11-11T16:35:38Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > No, Zizek’s pessimism regarding Russia is not justified. Russia will probably become more authoritarian after Putin shuffled off this mortal coil, but there’s a decent chance it turns to the authoritarian left (I.e. the Communists) rather than the authoritarian right. I’m sure Zizek (and I would agree with him) would Favour that outcome. He regards Stalinism as an ethical disaster. I don’t know how far he has any regard for authoritarianism, but I don’t think he’s a gulags type of guy - seeing as he was a dissident constantly aggravating his government, and would probably have been encamped if Yugoslavia was more authoritarian. I think you’re looking at a stereotype. What makes you think that Russia would go left ? I know there is still some communist party support but it’s not a majority i think. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-zizek-is-wqrong-and-china-and-russia-do-become-fully-democratic/737003/28 "2015-11-12T15:01:25Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > He regards Stalinism as an ethical disaster. I don’t know how far he has any regard for authoritarianism, but I don’t think he’s a gulags type of guy - seeing as he was a dissident constantly aggravating his government, and would probably have been encamped if Yugoslavia was more authoritarian. I think you’re looking at a stereotype. > > What makes you think that Russia would go left ? I know there is still some communist party support but it’s not a majority i think. The communists are the second largest party (after Putin’s) with about 20% of the vote, the nationalists and liberals each come in with 10-15%. There is (barely) majority support for a centrally planned economy, though, and plurality support for a ‘Soviet style’ political system. As mentioned above, a lot of these people who sympathize with communism apparently end up voting for Putin, for reasons that are unclear. I’d guess partly personal charisma, partly nationalism, partly because things got better under his watch, and most importantly because even if they dislike Putin they prefer him to the liberals (and I’d guess that liberals dislike Putin but prefer him to the communists). Putin probably has a lock on the presidency for a long time, but he won’t live forever. I think the KPRF has a decent shot at power after he dies, because they have a considerable amount of support (certainly more than the liberals), and because they have a coherent ideology and model of society. (So do the liberals, but their model is very unpopular). As for Zizek regarding Stalin as an ethical disaster, well yes, so did every post-1956 Soviet leader at least to some degree. That didn’t make them liberal democrats. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-zizek-is-wqrong-and-china-and-russia-do-become-fully-democratic/737003/29 "2015-11-12T17:15:48Z")
“Left” and “right” may be irrelevant in discussing latter day communists. Remember that the current Chinese rulers still call themselves communists, but Karl Marx no longer enters into their decision making process. Similarly, a new caudillo ruling over Russia might call himself a communist, but that doesn’t mean Marxist ideology would carry much weight with him. What I’m saying is, “democracy” doesn’t automatically lead to a liberal state. In much of the Middle East, “the people” WANT an authoritarian Islamic state. Many ordinary Russians WANT rule by an autocratic strongman. Many ordinary Chinese would support a rabidly nationalistic, aggressive military leadership. Not everybody wants to live in a Swedish-style social democratic state. Don’t assume that every nation with fair, open elections would elect liberal democrats. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-if-zizek-is-wqrong-and-china-and-russia-do-become-fully-democratic/737003.md?page=1)