# What info is nessecary when making a Credit card purchase? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 12, 2006, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-info-is-nessecary-when-making-a-credit-card-purchase/347997 "2006-03-12T01:52:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bambi_Hassenpfeffer)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-info-is-nessecary-when-making-a-credit-card-purchase/347997/61 "2006-03-16T00:22:39Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Just curious, Does that include Debit with pin #. That’s pretty much all I use at the grocery store. That’s exclusively credit cards. Our sales are roughly one third credit, one third debit, and one sixth each cash and checks. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-info-is-nessecary-when-making-a-credit-card-purchase/347997/62 "2006-03-16T02:11:22Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > OK, this gets my goat. I make sure that merchants know and abide by the agreement they’ve signed and refuse to produce an ID. The “CID” of “See ID” folks slow down transactions and without a signed card, should not be able to have their purchase processed. I completely disagree with the mailbag’s incorrect assessment as it doesn’t allow for signatures to be matched either. The end result is that most (if not all) credit card purchases have fraud protection for the consumer. I think the point is that merchants need fraud protection just as much as consumers do. Many people use See ID and like me they have their ID at the ready so it doesn’t slow anybody down. It’s called consideration. You can disagree all you like but that doesn’t change reality. What we’ve established is that proper merchant agreement procedure consists of several steps other than signature comparison and doesn’t really take any more time than checking ID if store employees are doing it properly. My guess is you and many others have been spoiled by cashiers who don’t actually follow the merchant agreement. When you refuse to produce an ID for the cashier does that slow your transaction or the transaction of those behind you? Sarcasm aside, I am fine with you insisting that merchants adhere to the agreement and refusing to produce ID. Of course if any of the several steps on the merchant agreement don’t jive then I’ll have to call the CC company and _they_ may ask me to check ID. Honest, many signatures don’t match very well. Some people have have distinct handwriting but more than a few just scribble and you really can’t tell if they match. What should I do then? Will that slow transactions? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-info-is-nessecary-when-making-a-credit-card-purchase/347997/63 "2006-03-16T02:17:45Z")
> [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > No need. I’ve had a half-dozen bad checks in 4-1/2 years running this store, and I’ve recovered every one of them. WOW!! You’re lucky. We’ve had way to many bad checks. MAnagement tells us state laws in TN just made it harder to collect so we discourage most checks. We won’t take any that aren’t local. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-info-is-nessecary-when-making-a-credit-card-purchase/347997/64 "2006-03-16T02:24:46Z")
> [@Bambi Hassenpfeffer](#): > > That’s exclusively credit cards. Our sales are roughly one third credit, one third debit, and one sixth each cash and checks. Interesting. Do you have any info on bad charges for groceries. How many do you get? Probably more than I’d expect. The problem for many merchants is that one bad charge can be on a very exspensive item. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-info-is-nessecary-when-making-a-credit-card-purchase/347997/65 "2006-03-16T03:27:55Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I think the point is that merchants need fraud protection just as much as consumers do. Many people use See ID and like me they have their ID at the ready so it doesn’t slow anybody down. It’s called consideration. You can disagree all you like but that doesn’t change reality. > > What we’ve established is that proper merchant agreement procedure consists of several steps other than signature comparison and doesn’t really take any more time than checking ID if store employees are doing it properly. My guess is you and many others have been spoiled by cashiers who don’t actually follow the merchant agreement. > > When you refuse to produce an ID for the cashier does that slow your transaction or the transaction of those behind you? > > Sarcasm aside, I am fine with you insisting that merchants adhere to the agreement and refusing to produce ID. Of course if any of the several steps on the merchant agreement don’t jive then I’ll have to call the CC company and _they_ may ask me to check ID. > > Honest, many signatures don’t match very well. Some people have have distinct handwriting but more than a few just scribble and you really can’t tell if they match. What should I do then? Will that slow transactions? Well, the thought process behind the credit card companies directive not to have the consumer produce an ID is to expedite the purchase. The funnel of time is plugged when merchants or consumers insist on bucking the pre-planned system that’s been set. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-info-is-nessecary-when-making-a-credit-card-purchase/347997/66 "2006-03-16T04:07:23Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Well, the thought process behind the credit card companies directive not to have the consumer produce an ID is to expedite the purchase. The funnel of time is plugged when merchants or consumers insist on bucking the pre-planned system that’s been set. The thought process is to balance ease of use with security for consumer and merchant. It’s plain to see their are several security steps that go along with comparing signitures. Most of those require calling the CC company if we even think there’s a problem. If I don’t do that then I risk not only bad debt for the company but considerable hassle for the customer if charges go on their account without their permission. No reasonable person can say thats significantly faster than showing ID. If you want to refuse to show ID then be my guest but it’s not because anyone is slowing you down. That’s simply not true. ---
**Author:** ![Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bambi_Hassenpfeffer)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-info-is-nessecary-when-making-a-credit-card-purchase/347997/67 "2006-03-16T07:34:38Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Interesting. > > Do you have any info on bad charges for groceries. How many do you get? Probably more than I’d expect. The problem for many merchants is that one bad charge can be on a very exspensive item. Very, very few. As in easily less than 1 in 10,000. But retail grocery isn’t nearly as prone to fraud as, say, self-serve gasoline, or online merchants, or electronics retailers. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-info-is-nessecary-when-making-a-credit-card-purchase/347997/68 "2006-03-16T12:40:13Z")
> [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > When you throw in the “most locations” (and change it to “most _urban_ locations”), then I might agree that they’re a bit faster. Immeasurably? Only when the person with the checks is slow or discourteous. Uh, you know that the population of the United States is predominately urban, right? Therefore “most locations” is inclusive of the word “urban.” Yeah, out in the sticks there may be a difference, but I still feel perfectly comfortable with my qualification of “most locations.” All the more, don’t be so defensive. I’m not talking about _you specifically_. > [@](#): > > You’re pretty much clueless. I _have_ a fulltime Internet connection. Running my credit cards through it costs me a significant investment, including replacing my terminal, buying extra software, and paying an extra monthly fee. I average \<10 credit card transactions a day during off-season, and 20 a day during peak season. You think I’m going to spend over $1000 to shave off a few seconds? Not a chance. You’re pretty much insulting. But, yeah, I’m clueless – I don’t know if you have a net connection or not, because I don’t know you. I hate to make this _just about you_ but you’re whining on and on about it. I never suggested that _you specifically_ replace anything; but when you have the choice of initial investment it’s an even wash. As is, you seem to be the type of shopkeeper who won’t reinvest in a new toilet because the broken one only affects 1% of your customers. Sheesh. > [@](#): > > No need. I’ve had a half-dozen bad checks in 4-1/2 years running this store, and I’ve recovered every one of them. Only for out-of-state checks. I don’t do all that stuff for local checks. Again, this isn’t just about InvisibleWombat’s store! I’ve taken careful pains to qualify my statements. In any case, if I had to write a check I think it sounds like I’d have a really good experience in your store. As a customer, I really do appreciate the experience more than anything else – what did you say you sell? Widgets, then. I can get widgets anywhere; it sounds like you’d be a candidate for repeat business (well, unless your public toilet’s broken when I really need it). > [@](#): > > Sure, you can swipe the card faster, but the check-writer is writing out that amount _while the receipt prints_. After I swipe your card, I still have to confirm the last four digits, print the receipt, and wait for you to sign it. By then, the guy with the check is done and out of there. Okay, this is just about you – what type of old fashioned archaic equipment are you using where a receipt takes so long to print? Is it one of those old 30cps line printers you can get at the flea market for $10? > [@](#): > > Yes. I’ve been running that register for 4-1/2 years, and _courteous, organized people_ with checks are faster to process than equivalent credit-card users. I’ll give you this – I find that in the sticks a higher percentage of people are curteous and organized compared to the jerks that live in suburbia. Even so, in any modern facility, the credit card will always be much, much faster. Except… there was a time where on store (Wal-Mart?) would just run your blank check through a printer – that was equally fast. The only problem was that the same people that are afraid to use credit/debit cards are afraid to let the machine do the printing. > [@](#): > > I’ll agree, but only if there’s somebody behind you in line. Otherwise, who cares? I’d just as soon get the exact change. I’m there all day anyway. LOL – you’re right. Glad we could see eye to eye on something. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-info-is-nessecary-when-making-a-credit-card-purchase/347997/69 "2006-03-16T16:53:51Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > The thought process is to balance ease of use with security for consumer and merchant. It’s plain to see their are several security steps that go along with comparing signitures. Most of those require calling the CC company if we even think there’s a problem. If I don’t do that then I risk not only bad debt for the company but considerable hassle for the customer if charges go on their account without their permission. No reasonable person can say thats significantly faster than showing ID. If you want to refuse to show ID then be my guest but it’s not because anyone is slowing you down. That’s simply not true. If it’s “simply not true” then you ought to have proof and that the few false purchases would outweigh the time of erroneously demanding ID to be shown. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-info-is-nessecary-when-making-a-credit-card-purchase/347997/70 "2006-03-16T18:37:28Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Well, the thought process behind the credit card companies directive not to have the consumer produce an ID is to expedite the purchase. The funnel of time is plugged when merchants or consumers insist on bucking the pre-planned system that’s been set. You have been misinformed. Requesting ID is against card acceptance agreements because it can be used as a form of passive suppression. Many merchants, especially small ones with little market power, often try to drive their customers towards paying with cash. Plastic acceptance can lure in patrons, but at the point of purchase, merchants try to dissuade them from actually using their credit cards. Merchants are pretty savvy and have all sorts of ways of doing this. Credit card companies and third party acquirers have to anticipate these kinds of behaviors and build them into the acceptance agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-info-is-nessecary-when-making-a-credit-card-purchase/347997/71 "2006-03-16T19:30:00Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Well, first of all, legal issues aside, if you read your merchant agreement with Visa you will see that you are actually in violation of that agreement if you have a poicy of checking every Visa cardholders identification. Are there exceptions for certain types of transactions or dollar amounts? I’ve noticed that when I use my credit card at a drive-through (BK is the main offender), they often ask for ID and just give me a receipt without asking me to sign it. I’ve never complained about it, but I don’t like the extra hassle, especially after all those Visa Check Card commercials pointing out how you don’t need to show ID, and I think it’s about time I started complaining. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-info-is-nessecary-when-making-a-credit-card-purchase/347997/72 "2006-03-16T21:13:46Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > Are there exceptions for certain types of transactions or dollar amounts? > > I’ve noticed that when I use my credit card at a drive-through (BK is the main offender), they often ask for ID and just give me a receipt without asking me to sign it. I’ve never complained about it, but I don’t like the extra hassle, especially after all those Visa Check Card commercials pointing out how you don’t need to show ID, and I think it’s about time I started complaining. Well, if I was going to be a cynic I would say that what the card companies advertise to you is not necessarily aligned to reality. Specifically, they say to you “Don’t worry, it’s a breeze, no ID necessary and it only takes 0.0012 seconds and it doesn’t cost a penny” To the retailer they say “follow these 132 steps to the letter or you get to absorb the cost of any fraud, and we add $0.50 and 2% to the cost of every transaction you process - better add that to the price tag or take it out of your margin” Similarly, on credit cards they make it sound like it’s virtually an interest-free loan - in reality those teaser rates evaporate pretty quickly. Incidentally, I have no idea what a Visa Check card is - if it’s a PIN debit card then there is no need for ID because they verify every single transaction themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-info-is-nessecary-when-making-a-credit-card-purchase/347997/73 "2006-03-16T22:34:19Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > I am confused by this POV expressed succintly here but also in other posts. If the merchant follows the association’s procedures, they will not be held liable for losses due to fraud. What are the merchants worried about? If you have a signature and a card-present transaction you’re pretty much home free. I’ll bet chargebacks from disgruntled customers using a legit card are a bigger problem for the merchants than card fraud. (I used to manage payments systems for a large ecommerce company; that’s a horse of a different color since the transactions are card-not-present. We had lots of fraud. However, we provided an online service so we could just yank the service.) > > If you follow all the steps that **Bambi Hassenpfeffer** lists, then you’re going to get paid. Those steps look like a long list but for someone who has a couple of days’ experience in doing it, it doesn’t take long. Certainly no longer than waiting for the customer to fish out another piece of ID, and the clerk to check that. The problem with the steps is the phone call when there is something suspicious. From how I’ve seen certain customers react when I ask them for ID, I can not even image how many would get upset if I mistrusted them enough to make a phone call. The ones that get particularly upset are the customers that come to my store almost every day. In their eyes I am being very disrespectful because I do not trust them. I had a few customers tell me “don’t worry, I won’t rob you of $20” while giving me their ID. > [@Bambi Hassenpfeffer](#): > > I think it is right for all businesses to honor the contracts they have signed. What you see as an honorable contract, I see as coercion. It is just gross abuse by powerful big business against weak smaller businesses. I think that there should be some kind of a law against this coercion. In absence of that law civil disobedience will have to do. I agree to take the loss of chargeback for not following security procedure. In a way I am still honoring the agreement. The agreement says that if I don’t follow procedure that I can not contest a chargeback, and that is what happens. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-info-is-nessecary-when-making-a-credit-card-purchase/347997/74 "2006-03-16T22:56:42Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > Are there exceptions for certain types of transactions or dollar amounts? > > I’ve noticed that when I use my credit card at a drive-through (BK is the main offender), they often ask for ID and just give me a receipt without asking me to sign it. I’ve never complained about it, but I don’t like the extra hassle, especially after all those Visa Check Card commercials pointing out how you don’t need to show ID, and I think it’s about time I started complaining. Often not. ID doesn’t really make much of a difference for exotic transactions, especially when the fraudulent cardholder is in collusion with a fraudulent merchant. Extremely large dollar amounts and transactions in high risk industries will flag the fraud models embedded in the authorization/submission process. A representative of the credit card company might actually call the point of sale, or perhaps the transaction will be processed with certain restrictions. Keep in mind that there are many ways to launder money using a credit card, so card issuers and acquirers are very keen to keep an eye on how their products are being used. We also have to comply with the Patriot Act, which requires even more stringent kinds of monitoring and internal processes. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-info-is-nessecary-when-making-a-credit-card-purchase/347997/75 "2006-03-16T22:59:05Z")
> [@slaphead](#): > > Incidentally, I have no idea what a Visa Check card is - if it’s a PIN debit card then there is no need for ID because they verify every single transaction themselves. It’s a debit card, but it has a Visa logo and can be used like any other Visa card, just by signing the receipt (or entering the card number + expiration date + CVV for online purchases). You can also use it like a regular ATM/debit card, by entering your PIN at the point of sale, but you don’t have to do that unless you want cash back. Cashiers often ask “debit or credit?” when you hand them any Visa card; if you say “credit”, they run it as a credit card transaction and you have to sign, but the money is still debited from your checking account. A while back, Visa ran a sweepstakes where you were automatically entered whenever you used the card for a “credit” transaction. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-info-is-nessecary-when-making-a-credit-card-purchase/347997/76 "2006-03-16T23:08:54Z")
I forgot to answer the second part of your question, **Mr2001**. Burger King is a quick service restaurant, so the transaction size is extremely low but the number of net transactions is very high. The reason why no signature is required is almost certainly because BK is on a “no-reply chargeback” special program. Chargebacks are costly to process and reply to on the part of the merchant. They are also something of a hassle for all parties involved. BK probably waived the right to reply to chargebacks in exchange for not having to collect a signature at the point of sale. BK doesn’t mind having to eat the cost of an occasional asshole calling to dispute a $5 charge in exchange for the vastly improved transactions/minute it gets from not getting a signature. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-info-is-nessecary-when-making-a-credit-card-purchase/347997/77 "2006-03-16T23:14:07Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > The reason why no signature is required is almost certainly because BK is on a “no-reply chargeback” special program. Interesting… that’s what I was trying to get at with the question about transaction types. This special program wouldn’t entitle them to require ID, would it? ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-info-is-nessecary-when-making-a-credit-card-purchase/347997/78 "2006-03-16T23:18:48Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > Interesting… that’s what I was trying to get at with the question about transaction types. This special program wouldn’t entitle them to require ID, would it? Perhaps. A lot of high risk industries would be on no-reply chargebacks or similar programs, where there is no opportunity to collect signatures since the card is keyed, not swiped. There is no clear and necessary relationship between no-reply CBs and presentation of ID. However, something around this might have been negotiated in the custom contract. Alternatively, each franchise owner has to eat his own chargebacks, so the ID presentation might just be a homegrown effort to reduce fraud. ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-info-is-nessecary-when-making-a-credit-card-purchase/347997/79 "2006-03-16T23:47:47Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > When you refuse to produce an ID for the cashier does that slow your transaction or the transaction of those behind you? Not one bit. The only time in recent memory when I was asked for ID after presenting a signed credit card was at BestBuy. The cashier told me it was “their policy”. I pointed out that it was against their agreement with my card company. So I walked out, leaving behind around $1800 in merchandise. That I went down the road to purchase. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-info-is-nessecary-when-making-a-credit-card-purchase/347997/80 "2006-03-17T01:00:46Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > If it’s “simply not true” then you ought to have proof and that the few false purchases would outweigh the time of erroneously demanding ID to be shown. Proof? I thought common sense might be enough. The merchant agreement clearly states 5 steps for secure transactions that have been listed. These 5 steps if done carefully and consistently aren’t any quicker than asking for ID and being shown one. In fact I tried it today. One customer hadn’t signed his card and even though it had his picture on it I pointed it out to him. I asked for an ID so I could compare signatures. According to the merchant agreement I should have called the CC company and asked him to sign it in my presence. No doubt he would’ve been pissed at the delay. I pointed out where it said “not valid unless signed” and he said the bank had told him not to sign it for security reasons. Make them ask for ID was the thought. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-info-is-nessecary-when-making-a-credit-card-purchase/347997.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-info-is-nessecary-when-making-a-credit-card-purchase/347997.md?page=5)