# What institutions are left over from the Holy Roman Empire? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 6, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-institutions-are-left-over-from-the-holy-roman-empire/502136 "2009-07-06T22:58:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-institutions-are-left-over-from-the-holy-roman-empire/502136/21 "2009-07-07T07:51:55Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Does the House of Hapsburg count? They didn’t start as the emperors, but were mostly contemporaneous. But they were/are hardly an institution created by the empire. Well, not a bureaucratic institution, anyway ;). Also technically speaking that dynastic name should have gone extinct in 1780 with the death of Maria Theresa ( it went extinct in the male line back in 1740 ). But for emotive/propaganda reasons the succeeding house of Lorraine adopted the name Hapsburg-Lorraine. So there actually aren’t any patriline-descent Hapsburgs around anymore - the modern branches are all descended only through the matriline via Maria Theresa. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-institutions-are-left-over-from-the-holy-roman-empire/502136/22 "2009-07-07T08:11:38Z")
Toga parties. What, that’s not enough of an institution? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-institutions-are-left-over-from-the-holy-roman-empire/502136/23 "2009-07-07T08:15:28Z")
> [@WormTheRed](#): > > The German post office traces it’s heritage to the HRE. The [Thurn und Taxis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_von_Taxis) family got a Royal License way back. We Await Silent Trystero’s Empire! ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-institutions-are-left-over-from-the-holy-roman-empire/502136/24 "2009-07-07T08:28:56Z")
There will be any number of towns and cities chartered by this or that Emperor which are still in existence (but usually it would be the Emperor acting in some other capacity, e.g. as Archduke of Austria. And lots of people still claim, and use, titles of nobility granted by one of the Emperors. I doubt that these have any legal significance anywhere today, but they may still have some social significance. Oh, and Monaco was founded by the Emperor Henry VI. It is still a going concern. The empire, though, was mostly about co-ordinating relationships between sovereigns. It didn’t do a lot of direct governing, so it wasn’t in the business of establishing institutions all that often. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-institutions-are-left-over-from-the-holy-roman-empire/502136/25 "2009-07-07T10:02:04Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Toga parties. > > What, that’s not enough of an institution? Wrong empire. \ ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-institutions-are-left-over-from-the-holy-roman-empire/502136/26 "2009-07-07T10:20:39Z")
The Holy Roman Empire was a curious thing, it was not ‘holy’ and it was not ‘Roman’, also as the thing was something of a conglomeration of states rather than a centrally controlled entity, it wasn’t even much of an ‘Empire’. Given that the Romans had a bit of a problem in what is now Germany (sort of Legions going missing), and the HRE was mainly what is now Germany, one could wonder whether its name was something of a metaphorical ‘finger’. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-institutions-are-left-over-from-the-holy-roman-empire/502136/27 "2009-07-07T10:32:06Z")
Given that the name was invented by Charlemagne, who was a Frank and called it “Holy” because he asked for the Pope’s blessing to start it, “Roman” see above, and “Empire” because that’s what he wanted to build… maybe there were no fingers involved (other than those of the Pope whose ring Charlemagne kissed). ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-institutions-are-left-over-from-the-holy-roman-empire/502136/28 "2009-07-07T13:18:05Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Austria existed before Franz II became Emperor of it. The institution he created was not the nation of Austria but the office of Emperor of Austria, and that institution does not survive; it ended in 1918. Did it exist before the Holy Roman Empire? ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-institutions-are-left-over-from-the-holy-roman-empire/502136/29 "2009-07-07T15:19:10Z")
Roads? ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-institutions-are-left-over-from-the-holy-roman-empire/502136/30 "2009-07-07T15:19:42Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > If you mean specific public schools established under the Empire which still surivive today, most of these would have been established at the local or national level, not by the Empire, which generally concerned itself with loftier matters. > > If you mean the concept of a public school, i.e. an educational institution provided at communal expense which any child could attend, these long predate the Holy Roman Empire. C’est ce sacré Charlemagne Sacré Charlemagne! Qui a eu cette idée folle Un jour d’inventer l’école… ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-institutions-are-left-over-from-the-holy-roman-empire/502136/31 "2009-07-07T15:24:06Z")
Everything I know, I learned from children’s songs… ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-institutions-are-left-over-from-the-holy-roman-empire/502136/32 "2009-07-07T15:33:17Z")
😉 Actually, I believe that what Charlemagne did was introduce a compulsory and free education system in his empire. It wasn’t the first time in history this was done, but it’s the most famous example of public schools in the Medieval era. I don’t think his system lasted to the present day though. But that won’t stop French kids (who probably learned about him as one of the founders of their nation) from jokingly blaming him for school. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-institutions-are-left-over-from-the-holy-roman-empire/502136/33 "2009-07-07T15:50:51Z")
What Charlemagne did, under the direction of his adviser and theologian Alcuin, was to ask the churches and monasteries to establish schools to teach writing, arithmetic and religion, and to do so without charging the payment of fees. According to legend, Alcuin had signs posted in front of the taverns of Strasbourg, saying “Choose, O traveller; if thou wilt drink thou must also pay money, but if thou wilt learn thou wilt have what thou seekest for nothing.” ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-institutions-are-left-over-from-the-holy-roman-empire/502136/34 "2009-07-07T16:13:26Z")
Not an ‘institution’ per se, but there are about three titles of “Count” (not “Earl”) in the side branches of the British Royal Family which derive from grants by Holy Roman Emperors a couple of centuries back. ---
**Author:** ![Outpits](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4bbf92/32.png) [@Outpits](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Outpits)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-institutions-are-left-over-from-the-holy-roman-empire/502136/35 "2009-07-07T16:55:24Z")
What about Carolingian miniscule? Anyone who has attempted to transcribe older scripts realizes the advantages of capital letters and the spaces between words. Of course, this all assumes we are equating the Holy Roman and Carolingian empires. There is the argument that it is no longer used per se, but I think many of its ideas persist in modern scripts. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-institutions-are-left-over-from-the-holy-roman-empire/502136/36 "2009-07-07T17:04:22Z")
Although their status as such has not quite been continuous, [Hamburg](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg) and [Bremen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremen_(state)) are, as _stadstaaten_, still [‘free cities’](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_imperial_city). ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-institutions-are-left-over-from-the-holy-roman-empire/502136/37 "2009-07-07T17:16:40Z")
:: mutters :: Bloody Holy Romans… ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-institutions-are-left-over-from-the-holy-roman-empire/502136/38 "2009-07-07T17:34:24Z")
Thanks **Captain Amazing** , very interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-institutions-are-left-over-from-the-holy-roman-empire/502136/39 "2009-07-07T17:46:06Z")
> [@BMalion](#): > > Roads? Yeah, but what has the Holy Roman Empire done for us _lately_? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-institutions-are-left-over-from-the-holy-roman-empire/502136/40 "2009-07-07T18:03:06Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > Did it exist before the Holy Roman Empire? No. Bavaria did pre-date the HRE as a tribal state, but Austria did not. Austria was an offshoot of Bavaria, a march created out of Bavarian territory on the borders with Bohemia and Hungary that became a quasi-autonomous entity in the late 10th century. In the 12th century it was broken off Bavaria for good and elevated to a separate duchy as a recompense for the ruling Babenberg family having been deprived of Bavaria proper ( which had earlier been taken from the Welf family and handed to the Babenbergs, then returned to the Welfs again, causing the territorial split ). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-institutions-are-left-over-from-the-holy-roman-empire/502136.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-institutions-are-left-over-from-the-holy-roman-empire/502136.md?page=3)