# What is a Christian? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 4, 2006, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-christian/363117 "2006-07-04T02:41:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-christian/363117/101 "2006-07-19T12:10:35Z")
[QUOTE=rwjefferson] I bear good news, you’ve got it backwards. Jesus did not expand sins, he reduced them. Fear not to wear garments of wool and cotton together. Savor the abominations of shellfish and pork. Enjoy meat and dairy together. [/QUOTE] Um…No, read the words of Jesus in MAt 5. You’ll see I don’t have it backwards. I didn’t say Jesus expanded sin I said he expanded in the ten commandments in that he spoke to a deeper spiritual meaning rather than focus on a superficial obedience. He explained also in Mat 15 when he was criticized because his disciples didn’t wash their hands. He responded > [@](#): > > 10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him ‘unclean.’ " and when his disciples asked him to explain. > [@](#): > > 16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17"Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’ 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man ‘unclean’; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him ‘unclean.’ " > [@](#): > > Jesus did not expand sins, he forgave them. It is not that sinning in the heart is as bad as the actual sin; it is that the actual sin is no worse than the thought. I’m not sure what you are saying here. Jesus clearly said that harboring certain feelings in the heart is as bad as committing the act. He did not say neither really matters because he forgives. He was trying to get people to realize the spiritual life is within and not superficial. You see that again in Mat 15. In Luke 17 > [@](#): > > 20Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you. " Once again, Jesus pointed out that you do not recieve some future reward for superficial obedience to a set of rules. Seek heaven by transforming yourself from within. Seek diligently and with a sincere heart and you will find. In Mat 13 Jesus tells many parables about the kingdom of heaven but they all relate to the inner journey. The mustard seed that grows, The yeast in the loaf. He points out in verses 44 and 45 that it is worth giving up everything for. In Mat 6: > [@](#): > > 19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. This is not about earning salvation points for a future reward in heaven. It is about valuing the eternal rather than the fleeting things around us. It’s about making those things a priority in our day to day interactions. > [@](#): > > What is more important than sin is how one treats fellow sinners. Does one hypocritically judge and persecute and deny another sinner, or does one love other sinners as self and treat them as equal; no matter the sin? > Heaven is found in loving and accepting your neighbors as equals. Heaven is found in helping others find their peace. > > ItS > r~ How we treat others is a reflection of out own inner journey. Jesus pointed out several times that that the outward appearance of righteousness is not enough. As we are transformed from within we forgive because we see our own need for forgiveness. We see truly that we are all connected and so a harsh judgement of others becomes a harsh judgement of ourselves. Through the spiritual journey within our actions are born from what is sincerely in our hearts, not a perfunctory obedience to commandments because we want to serve and please a distant deity. Our actions reflect the sincere love, mercy and forgiveness in our hearts. We help others simply by being true to ourselves and our own journey and allowing others their own journey. We encourage them to seek truly by our own sincere acts, but we respect their right to choose their own way. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2006, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-christian/363117/102 "2006-07-20T11:42:44Z")
If I remember my bible history right,The very first Christians were Jews that followed Jesus. The name Christian was given much later to describe the followers of Jesus that believed He was the Christ(the anointed one). Paul brought the belief in Jesus being the Messiah(the Christ) then later, those followers were known as Christians. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2006, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-christian/363117/103 "2006-07-20T14:14:23Z")
[QUOTE=monavis] If I remember my bible history right,The very first Christians were Jews that followed Jesus. The name Christian was given much later to describe the followers of Jesus that believed He was the Christ(the anointed one). Paul brought the belief in Jesus being the Messiah(the Christ) then later, those followers were known as Christians. Monavis [/QUOTE] “And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.” – Acts 11:26 ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2006, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-christian/363117/104 "2006-07-20T14:36:26Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] [some really good stuff] [/QUOTE] Amen, brother. Christianity is not about who goes to heaven, or who goes to hell, or someone elses state of grace. Get to know your own heart, and your own soul. Get to know the Spirit of Jesus. You find Him with help from the Bible, but you find Him in your own heart. And learn about the Love of God first hand. First hand is when you try to act according to the Love of God. Talking about it is, of course, second hand. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2006, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-christian/363117/105 "2006-07-20T15:46:08Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] “And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.” – Acts 11:26 [/QUOTE] As to calling Jesus the Messiah, didn’t Peter say that? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2006, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-christian/363117/106 "2006-07-20T16:56:05Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra] As to calling Jesus the Messiah, didn’t Peter say that? [/QUOTE] That depends on what you mean by “Peter.” 😉 Mark 8:29 has Peter say “You are the Christ,” but strictly speaking, that’s the author of Mark talking, not a primary claim by Peter himself. It MAY be an accurate account of something that Peter said but it also may not be. The Epistles of Peter call Jesus “Christ,” but those are generally believed to be pseudoepigraphical letters not actually written by the apostle (there is more agreement on this about 2 Peter than 1 Peter but still a decided consensus that even 1 Peter is pseudonymous). The first _known_ individual to call Jesus the Jewish Messiah was Paul but some kind of Jesus movement clearly existed before his conversion. Exactly what it consisted of or how the original disciples perceived Jesus is unknown, since they left no writings of their own (that we know of). From what I’ve read, the first Jewish followers of Jesus in Jerusalem probably called themselves “the Elect,” but if you’d asked them what their religion was they would have almost certainly said they were Jewish. I don’t think they initially conceived of themselves as a representing a distinct new religion but only as a sect within Judaism. It was only after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE (an event which basically obliterated the Jewish-Christian movement in Jerusalem and left Paul’s mission to Gentiles and Diaspora Jews as the standing “Christian” movement and was the basis for the proto-orthodox churches. It may be that the specific word “Christians” (_Christianos_), which the author of Luke-Acts implies was first applied TO them rather than BY them, was originally intended to be derisive. The Hebrew word _Moshiach_ didn’t really translate that well into Greek, or at least didn’t really convey it’s figurative significance. _Christos_ literally means “rubbed on” (as an oinment or salve). It could also mean “anointed” and was the logical way to render _Moshiach_, but those without any knowledge of what that title meant in Jewish tradition would just hear _Christos_ as “smeared” or “oiled.” Correspondingly, it is argued by some that they called the followers of this starnge god _Christianos_ (either “oily ones” or “followers of the Oily One”) as way to mock them (maybe something akin to the way some people call Scientologists “clams”). This speculation may or may not be accurate but worse things were said about early Christians than that they were “oily,” so it’s not implausible. ---
**Author:** ![Blanche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Blanche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blanche)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2006, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-christian/363117/107 "2006-07-20T17:43:27Z")
What if you believe that he was a great prophet and the Jewish Messiah, but not the Son of God? Oh wait, those are Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-christian/363117/108 "2006-07-21T12:20:31Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] “And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.” – Acts 11:26 [/QUOTE] Wasn’t this after written after Paul by Paul’s follower Luke? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-christian/363117/109 "2006-07-21T12:25:26Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] Amen, brother. Christianity is not about who goes to heaven, or who goes to hell, or someone elses state of grace. Get to know your own heart, and your own soul. Get to know the Spirit of Jesus. You find Him with help from the Bible, but you find Him in your own heart. And learn about the Love of God first hand. First hand is when you try to act according to the Love of God. Talking about it is, of course, second hand. Tris [/QUOTE] This is of course good for someone who believes this, but no help to those who do not. Didn’t Jesus say you should first learn to love your self? It seems to me I read that he said, how can you love a God you haven’t seen, unless you can love the neighbor who you can see. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-christian/363117/110 "2006-07-21T14:24:08Z")
[QUOTE=monavis] Wasn’t this after written after Paul by Paul’s follower Luke? [/QUOTE] Yes. I wasn’t posting the verse as a rebuttal to anything just offering it up for when the Bible says it was first used. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-christian/363117/111 "2006-07-21T15:00:45Z")
**Are** there any surviving self-identified Christian denominations that deny Jesus’ divinity? I’ve asked that a couple of times in this thread but it’s never been answered. Every Christian denomination now in existence is either trinitarian or monophysite, AFAIK. ---
**Author:** ![baronsabato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed655f/32.png) [@baronsabato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/baronsabato)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-christian/363117/112 "2006-07-21T23:20:47Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] **Are** there any surviving self-identified Christian denominations that deny Jesus’ divinity? I’ve asked that a couple of times in this thread but it’s never been answered. Every Christian denomination now in existence is either trinitarian or monophysite, AFAIK. [/QUOTE] The closest that I can think of would probably be the [American Unitarian Conference](http://www.americanunitarian.org/), an off-shoot from the Unitarian-Universalist Association. I’m not positive that this counts as a separate denomination or just a renewal group within the UUA, although [religioustolerance.org](http://www.religioustolerance.org/u-u4.htm) suggests it is both. It’s incredibly tiny (only about four congregations so far), but it’s sort of a step back to Christian Unitarianism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-christian/363117.md?page=5)