# What is a Defensive Gun Use? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 18, 2013, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-defensive-gun-use/650670 "2013-02-18T04:34:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-defensive-gun-use/650670/21 "2013-02-18T17:29:04Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > I use a warning shot to scare stubborn bears off my property. I fire it into a tree next to it. > > Since I’m not real comfortable having a bear stare me down while I’m in the yard, I consider this a DGU One thing I’m wondering about: Do bears make the same connection between guns and dying (or at least pain) that humans do? I could see a bear reacting to a warning shot by thinking “Oh, he’s pointing a stick at me, and made a loud noise with the stick” instead of “OMG he could kill me!”. Anyway, One distinction I made in my survey answers was “no” to “Shooting at somebody who has said he is about to attack you”, but yes to “Shooting at somebody who you think is about to attack you”. In my mind someone saying they are going to attack you is not proof that they actually are going to attack you (c.f. all-talk loudmouth douchebags), and if their threat is credible they fall into the latter category already. ---
**Author:** ![Krouget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b38774/32.png) [@Krouget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krouget)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-defensive-gun-use/650670/22 "2013-02-18T17:34:33Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Did you know a pistol round can go through several layers of drywall? Where did your warning shot go? Or is your first round a blank? Yes, I am. I’m also aware of any number of situations or possible outcomes, when it comes to firing a gun. Fortunately for me, I’m citing a very specific definition, and applying it to what was asked in the OP. Anything else is your creation of events.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-defensive-gun-use/650670/23 "2013-02-18T17:46:40Z")
> [@leahcim](#): > > One thing I’m wondering about: Do bears make the same connection between guns and dying (or at least pain) that humans do? I could see a bear reacting to a warning shot by thinking “Oh, he’s pointing a stick at me, and made a loud noise with the stick” instead of “OMG he could kill me!”. I really don’t know. It does scare them away when banging pots and pans together does not. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-defensive-gun-use/650670/24 "2013-02-18T18:49:44Z")
> [@Krouget](#): > > If an offender retreats at the sound of a gun, then that’s a successful defense, by any real measure. You remain safe and avoid much of the legal ramifications involved in actually hurting/killing someone. You’ve certainly _used_ the gun, but you’ve also gauged the situation before/while doing so. Makes sense to me. Maybe if your definition of “successful defense” involves doing jail time. :rolleyes: This depends on the jurisdiction, of course, but even in most pro-gun and pro-self defense states, warning shots are illegal (even if sometimes prosecutors look the other way). If the situation wasn’t so immediate and serious that the criminal needed to be STOPPED RIGHT NOW, then it wasn’t so serious that you needed to fire a shot. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-defensive-gun-use/650670/25 "2013-02-18T19:27:51Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > I really don’t know. It does scare them away when banging pots and pans together does not. A large firecracker will have the same effect, as will typically a object thrown with a near miss. Bears can perform a lot of the same manipulations as humans, but they cannot throw objects, so this is kind of like magic to them. However, a bear which has become acclimated to either, i.e. has learned that they are not a threat, may not be desuaded. However, aerosoled oleoresin capsicum (“pepper spray”) is highly effective as a persistent deterrent. Warning shots are contraindicated for all of the reasons previously espoused, and I don’t know of a single law enforcement agency which permits peace officers to discharge their sidearms in warning under normal circumstances. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Krouget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b38774/32.png) [@Krouget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krouget)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-defensive-gun-use/650670/26 "2013-02-18T19:50:03Z")
> [@PatriotGrrrl](#): > > Maybe if your definition of “successful defense” involves doing jail time. :rolleyes: Doing potential jail-time is a _ **consequence** _ of actions, it doesn’t mean those actions weren’t taken and succeeded in the purpose of defense. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-defensive-gun-use/650670/27 "2013-02-18T20:01:20Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > I’m surprised the OP didn’t include any options about property crimes. Like shooting somebody who’s stealing your car or stealing your neighbour’s car. Well, if somebody was stealing my car, that’d piss me off. If it was my neighbor’s car, that’d probably piss him off. I wanted to keep this survey below a hundred questions. > [@shijinn](#): > > OP also did not include options for shooting at random strangers who are driving trucks. You are correct. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-defensive-gun-use/650670/28 "2013-02-18T23:13:21Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Damn. Kinda wish it was a public poll so we’d know who the psychopath is who thinks that shooting at people who piss off or frighten you is ok. I’d kinda like to know about the three people who voted No to the first one, myself. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-defensive-gun-use/650670/29 "2013-02-18T23:20:50Z")
Without more context, none of these can be said for certain to be defensive. To take an extreme example, shooting a two year old who was attacking you, but could not possibly harm you would not be defensive. I’d say all but the “someone who pissed you off” options _could_, in some circumstances, be defensive. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-defensive-gun-use/650670/30 "2013-02-18T23:21:35Z")
> [@InternetLegend](#): > > Although I don’t own a gun myself, I’m told that you don’t draw your weapon unless you’re prepared to use it, and you don’t shoot unless you’re prepared to kill. So there’s none of this “warning shot” crap, and if you’re showing your gun, you should be ready to use it. Isn’t that exactly the idea of displaying/announcing a weapon–to say, I am prepared to use this? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-defensive-gun-use/650670/31 "2013-02-18T23:43:25Z")
I asked the questions listed, phrased the way they are, because these have all showed up in various threads and news stories and survey results over the past few months as examples of what people felt to be proper defensive gun use. Some of these people are currently having serious difficulties with the legal system. I disagree with most of them as I don’t see firearms as defensive weapons. Too much Star Trek, I guess. I also disagree with the idea of linking up “defense” with “shooting somebody who’s not currently a threat to you”. I take even more exception with the “use” of a gun without shooting it, and particular exception with the last one on the list because, even though one of the largest surveys allows this as an example of a defensive gun use, you don’t have to fire the gun, it doesn’t have to be loaded, and, really, _you don’t even need to have a gun._ That’s just silly. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-defensive-gun-use/650670/32 "2013-02-18T23:53:44Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > I disagree with most of them as I don’t see firearms as defensive weapons. Too much Star Trek, I guess. … I take even more exception with the “use” of a gun without shooting it… So what is “charging phasers”? Is that not displaying or announcing the presence of a weapon, and readiness to use it? If that leads to an aggressor backing down, with no actual fire exchanged, is this not a defensive use of a weapon? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-defensive-gun-use/650670/33 "2013-02-19T00:00:15Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > So what is “charging phasers”? Is that not displaying or announcing the presence of a weapon, and readiness to use it? If that leads to an aggressor backing down, with no actual fire exchanged, is this not a defensive use of a weapon? It’s not the “defensive” part I have a problem with in that case. It’s the “use” part. ---
**Author:** ![Krouget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b38774/32.png) [@Krouget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krouget)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-defensive-gun-use/650670/34 "2013-02-19T01:06:16Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > I asked the questions listed, phrased the way they are, because these have all showed up in various threads and news stories and survey results over the past few months as examples of what people felt to be proper defensive gun use. Some of these people are currently having serious difficulties with the legal system. With the way it’s phrased, though,there isn’t enough context, while much of it is open to interpretation. In some states, you have legal right to defend yourself with broader protection(s) than others. In addition, since you’ve asked for our belief/opinion, it doesn’t necessarily mean it has to align with the law (since we are allowed to agree/disagree with the legality of any given situation, while trials/judges are used to interpret it, and by extension, the consequences). The way I read your thread, if I was able to think of any possible situation where I could answer “yes” to the question, it technically had to fall under the condition of defensive usage (legal or better decisions, withstanding). ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-defensive-gun-use/650670/35 "2013-02-19T01:15:11Z")
And that would be why the low estimate for DGU is 55,000 per year and the high is 2.5 million. Neither number is inherently more accurate than the other. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-defensive-gun-use/650670/36 "2013-02-19T01:29:20Z")
I voted for all instances of what I would consider “defensive” gun use. I didn’t consider whether such use was bone-headed and inadvisable, as long as it was actually defensive. Not sure if that was the intent or not. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-defensive-gun-use/650670/37 "2013-02-19T01:44:06Z")
is this a real question, or is it a segue into a lecture about how there’s no such thing as a “defensive” use of a firearm, and if I’m ever attacked it’s my civic duty to cower and comply and hope the police arrive within the next hour before I get hurt or worse? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-defensive-gun-use/650670/38 "2013-02-19T01:46:59Z")
Real question. People were discussing the various types of defensive gun use in other threads and I thought it would be interesting to see what sort of opinions the people hereabouts had. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-defensive-gun-use/650670/39 "2013-02-19T01:58:31Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > It’s not the “defensive” part I have a problem with in that case. It’s the “use” part. How is it not a use? You _did_ something with it. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-defensive-gun-use/650670/40 "2013-02-19T02:04:25Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > It’s not the “defensive” part I have a problem with in that case. It’s the “use” part. None of us are bound to whatever you like to define “defensive use” as. If someone attacks me, I produce a gun, and they break off and run away without me firing a shot, I’ve used my gun defensively. The presence of my gun convinced them to break off their attack. Win-fucking-win. I live, he lives for the cops to (hopefully) chase him down. How is that not defensive use? and you bring up _Star Trek_ like it’s relevant. /me shakes head. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-defensive-gun-use/650670.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-defensive-gun-use/650670.md?page=3)