# What is a functioning democracy and why I suspect it's an empty, ignorant term **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-functioning-democracy-and-why-i-suspect-its-an-empty-ignorant-term/680995 "2014-02-10T18:04:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-functioning-democracy-and-why-i-suspect-its-an-empty-ignorant-term/680995/21 "2014-02-11T05:48:47Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > If I were making up a definition for the term I would certainly include the third point. I’d feel like I should include the last but cannot really justify it given the nature of democracies in the past and present. I have no problem recognizing multiple flavours and definitions of “democracy”, including one were there was no legislature or courts and every issue was put to majority vote. “How much should John pay in taxes? Is Dave guilty of that murder?” But there has to be a test of sorts if one is going to say a country is no longer a functioning democracy, i.e. establishing what “functional democracy” characteristics a country once had but has now lost. Without context, it’s a meaningless comment. I happily admit my own bias in thinking a functioning democracy needs stable independent courts that apply laws evenhandedly. I figure without that, punishments are doled out capriciously by the executive, the legislature gets quickly cowed into compliance, and functionally democratic you ain’t. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-functioning-democracy-and-why-i-suspect-its-an-empty-ignorant-term/680995/22 "2014-02-11T06:28:15Z")
A common definition used in the political science and economics literature is that of the minimalist democracy - Any system of governance where there is a competitive election of leadership. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-functioning-democracy-and-why-i-suspect-its-an-empty-ignorant-term/680995/23 "2014-02-11T06:35:58Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You think Iran is a democracy?:dubious: > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, it’s the nearest thing to one between Turkey and India, not counting Israel. (Iraq and Pakistan and Afghanistan being too unstable for comparisons to apply.) And, yes, that **does** matter. Just having something like a stable and continuous and more-or-less-popular government since 1979 gives Iran a certain regional prestige that all its neighbors lack (not counting Israel, which is always a special case in discussions of the MENA, and such prestige as it has there is both unique and compromised). And we can’t afford to forget that. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-functioning-democracy-and-why-i-suspect-its-an-empty-ignorant-term/680995/24 "2014-02-11T07:04:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And, yes, that **does** matter. Just having something like a stable and continuous and more-or-less-popular government since 1979 gives Iran a certain regional prestige that all its neighbors lack (not counting Israel, which is always a special case in discussions of the MENA, and such prestige as it has there is both unique and compromised). And we can’t afford to forget that. None of that makes it democratic and could possibly make you think that it’s government is “more-or-less popular”? You’ve heard of the Green Revolution haven’t you? If they were popular they wouldn’t constantly have to rig elections and disqualify all the candidates who beat their hand-picked puppets. So, once again, what makes you label them “democratic.” ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-functioning-democracy-and-why-i-suspect-its-an-empty-ignorant-term/680995/25 "2014-02-11T08:17:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > A democracy is not a system that respects human rights. A democracy is a system where the state does whatever the majority of the people want it to do. No, and no. > [@Stringbean](#): > > A functioning democracy is one in which the minority is protected from abuse by the majority. Ninja’ed. There are several reasons why popular voting may lead to ineffective or undemocratic outcomes. Consider Thailand (though many U.S. commentators miss the point). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-functioning-democracy-and-why-i-suspect-its-an-empty-ignorant-term/680995/26 "2014-02-11T08:36:34Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Leaving aside the fact that you ignored Lebanon, please explain such a claim. Lebanon is barely a country. When an armed faction, which is more powerful than your own army, is capable of declaring and fighting wars against neighboring countries with impunity, then you’re not a nation at all, democratic or otherwise. You’re just land with some people on it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-functioning-democracy-and-why-i-suspect-its-an-empty-ignorant-term/680995/27 "2014-02-11T08:41:29Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > A functioning democracy is one in which the minority is protected from abuse by the majority. > > That’s where the Middle East fails, and the West succeeds. Assad’s (the father) Syria (with Alawites protected) fits. And there were elections, even 🙂 Was it a democracy? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-functioning-democracy-and-why-i-suspect-its-an-empty-ignorant-term/680995/28 "2014-02-11T08:50:43Z")
Personally, I have about as much confidence in Iran’s democracy as I do in William Shatner’s future career as an Olympic pole vaulter. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-functioning-democracy-and-why-i-suspect-its-an-empty-ignorant-term/680995/29 "2014-02-11T08:59:47Z")
So the definition o a functioning democracy that this thread has is “whatever Iran is not”.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-functioning-democracy-and-why-i-suspect-its-an-empty-ignorant-term/680995/30 "2014-02-11T09:03:15Z")
Well, if you want to define the thread that way, nobody will stop you. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-functioning-democracy-and-why-i-suspect-its-an-empty-ignorant-term/680995/31 "2014-02-11T09:56:46Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > There are several reasons why popular voting may lead to ineffective or undemocratic outcomes. Consider Thailand (though many U.S. commentators miss the point). A popular vote cannot possibly lead to an undemocratic outcome. Ineffective, almost certainly. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-functioning-democracy-and-why-i-suspect-its-an-empty-ignorant-term/680995/32 "2014-02-11T10:08:23Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > A popular vote cannot possibly lead to an undemocratic outcome. Sure it can. For instance, you can vote to cancel all future elections. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-functioning-democracy-and-why-i-suspect-its-an-empty-ignorant-term/680995/33 "2014-02-11T10:21:41Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Sure it can. For instance, you can vote to cancel all future elections. But that’s the democratic outcome. The people have ruled. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-functioning-democracy-and-why-i-suspect-its-an-empty-ignorant-term/680995/34 "2014-02-11T10:36:45Z")
Well, its functionality will have ended, certainly. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-functioning-democracy-and-why-i-suspect-its-an-empty-ignorant-term/680995/35 "2014-02-11T10:37:12Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > But that’s the democratic outcome. The people have ruled. Much too simplistic. For one thing, you ignore campaign lies, vote buying, and other electoral frauds. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-functioning-democracy-and-why-i-suspect-its-an-empty-ignorant-term/680995/36 "2014-02-11T10:40:46Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Much too simplistic. For one thing, you ignore campaign lies, vote buying, and other electoral frauds. Ah. So you’re saying it’s not a _truly_ democratic outcome. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-functioning-democracy-and-why-i-suspect-its-an-empty-ignorant-term/680995/37 "2014-02-11T10:43:31Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > But that’s the democratic outcome. The people have ruled. And the people can also change their mind. Democracy isn’t a method for choosing leaders - it’s a method for \*changing \*leaders. If you can’t change your leaders, it isn’t democracy. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-functioning-democracy-and-why-i-suspect-its-an-empty-ignorant-term/680995/38 "2014-02-11T10:50:45Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > And the people can also change their mind. > > Democracy isn’t a method for choosing leaders - it’s a method for \*changing \*leaders. If you can’t change your leaders, it isn’t democracy. I think we’re getting caught up in semantics. I see the outcome of any popular vote as a democratic outcome. You raise the hypothetical for people voting to change their system of government to something other than a democracy(Has this ever happened?). I still think of it as a democratic outcome, even though the outcome means you no longer have a democracy. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-functioning-democracy-and-why-i-suspect-its-an-empty-ignorant-term/680995/39 "2014-02-11T12:40:20Z")
I’m wondering if we’re confusing “Democracy” with a “Republic”. A Republic is governance _by the people_ as opposed to governance by the elite. So a Democracy is a sunset of the various Republic forms. The United States is a Representative Democracy, the people themselves don’t vote on every little issue (although lately neither do our elected representatives [grin]). However, using the working definition on this thread, I’d say a functioning democracy is one where the Nation-State’s Chief Executive is an elected position in some fashion, rather than inherited or gained through force of arms. I’ll give Saudi Arabia as an example of a non-democracy, they’re a Kingdom, Israel as a functioning democracy and Egypt as a (hopefully) transitional example. The NSA, even though No Such Agency exists, is a military operation, hellbent to destroy our enemies that Congress, and Congress alone, designates. I’d be more offended if they refused the direct order of Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-functioning-democracy-and-why-i-suspect-its-an-empty-ignorant-term/680995/40 "2014-02-11T12:55:29Z")
Maybe we need some other word for what people are striving to describe. Democracy does mean rule by the majority and that can be quite unedifying. Liberal is too much of a ‘scare’ word in much of the US but maybe what we are looking at is a system where the majority have a broad say over how the state should be governed, but are constrained by principles of individual and group rights which cannot be easily altered. Maybe a Constitutional Democracy is what we should be aiming at: Rule of Law Broad Franchise Regular Fair Elections uninfluenced by monied or authoritarian intervention Representatives not mandated by their electorate. Switzerland has a direct democracy with binding referendums. They have just as a people decided to renege on a Treaty agreement that may destroy their social and financial structure- should such risks be taken by a stste just because people do not understand the consequences [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-functioning-democracy-and-why-i-suspect-its-an-empty-ignorant-term/680995.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-functioning-democracy-and-why-i-suspect-its-an-empty-ignorant-term/680995.md?page=3)