# What is a Mary Sue? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 22, 2006, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759 "2006-05-22T15:07:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/21 "2006-05-22T19:52:24Z")
[QUOTE=koeeoaddi] Can you think of any other examples in popular fiction? [/quote] I think the group consensus is that Wesley Crusher from _Star Trek: The Next Generation_ started off as a Mary Sue/Larry Stu for Gene Roddenberry. ---
**Author:** ![AveDementia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@AveDementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AveDementia)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/22 "2006-05-22T20:48:39Z")
The Earth’s Children series (Clan of the Cave Bear, The Mammoth-hunters, etc.) by Jean M. Auel has Ayla, a tall blonde cavewoman who discovers and invents everything but the wheel, while taming wild animals and having hot sex with a tall blonde caveman, Jondalar. The first book was good, but it was all downhill from there. Midshipman’s Hope (by David Feintuch) has a Gary Stu named Nick Seafort. I think it’s still an interesting book despite that. The author had studied the British Navy and the Napoleonic Era and it shows. The others in the series aren’t as good, of course. Like with Auel’s books, it just gets silly after a while. ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/23 "2006-05-22T20:58:33Z")
Mary Sues often have the same initials as their creators. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/24 "2006-05-22T21:04:49Z")
In the Harry Potter series, Hermione may well be a Mary Sue for JK Rowling. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2006, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/25 "2006-05-22T21:10:13Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] In the Harry Potter series, Hermione may well be a Mary Sue for JK Rowling. [/QUOTE] I don’t know about that. I haven’t read the last two books, but I always felt that Rowling treated Hermoine very unsympathetically and consistently gave her the short end of the stick. ---
**Author:** ![audit1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@audit1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/audit1)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/26 "2006-05-23T00:19:13Z")
It’s a reach but could the character Harriet Vane in the Lord Peter Wimsey stories by Dorothy L Sayers be an early example of a Mary Sue? ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/27 "2006-05-23T01:42:36Z")
Even earlier: Beth in **Little Women**. She is described as having a round face. Here is a picture of [Louisa May Alcott](http://www.todayinliterature.com/assets/photos/a/louisa-may-alcott-200x292.jpg). There are Mary Sue tendencies in Tiny Tim in “A Christmas Carol,” but he doesn’t die. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/28 "2006-05-23T02:05:26Z")
The [Mary Sue Litmus Test](http://www.ponylandpress.com/ms-test.html)—this one’s a pretty generic version—tends to be a good indicator about what makes the character a MS; it’s informative for the casual researcher, to boot. The test mentions something that I’ve noticed crossing several fandoms—the eyes. Mary Sues almost _always_ have striking eyes or eye color. I don’t know if there’s some deep, Jungian signifigance to that or what. ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/29 "2006-05-23T02:31:45Z")
Cool, there’s a phrase to describe this concept. I think that the main character in True Romance is a Mary Sue (Gary Stu sounds dumb) for Quentin Tarantino. ---
**Author:** ![pokey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ebca7d/32.png) [@pokey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pokey)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/30 "2006-05-23T02:45:51Z")
Oh my god, that reminds me of Anne Rice’s Exit to Eden. She starts right off the bat saying this woman has _round_ eyes and not _almond_ eyes and that even though every other beautiful woman has _almond_ eyes that doesn’t stop this dumb character from being the most beautiful person ever. I never knew what that was called before! Kay Scarpetta has to be queen mary of the sues. Reading a Kay Scarpetta book is like watching Patricia Cornwell masturbate in front of a mirror. ---
**Author:** ![pesch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pesch/32/4925_2.png) [@pesch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pesch)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/31 "2006-05-23T03:01:38Z")
There’s a good number of people who believe that Sayers created her ideal man in Lord Peter Wimsey, so it’s an interesting notion to stretch the Mary Sue definition to include her. However, I should point out that Sayers was a very no-nonsense woman when it came to her writing and her life. The thought of creating a goo-goo adolescent MS to put herself into her books doesn’t jib with her personality. Still, it’s amusing to consider. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/32 "2006-05-23T03:29:28Z")
Wikipedia makes several points about how much Harriet Vane resembled Dorothy Sayers: > **[Dorothy L. Sayers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_L._Sayers)** > > Dorothy Leigh Sayers (/sɛərz/ SAIRZ;\[n 2\] 13 June 1893 – 17 December 1957) was an English crime novelist, playwright, translator and critic. Born in Oxford, Sayers was brought up in rural East Anglia and educated at Godolphin School in Salisbury and Somerville College, Oxford, graduating with first-class honours in medieval French. She worked as an advertising copywriter between 1922 and 1929 before success as an author brought her financial independence. Her first novel, Whose Body?, was publ... I’m not sure I would say that Sayers was “a very no-nonsense woman . . . [about] her life.” She wasn’t very pretty and basically threw herself at a couple of men who she should have realized didn’t actually love her. She then married a man mostly because he was willing to live off her income. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/33 "2006-05-23T03:29:52Z")
[QUOTE=pokey] Reading a Kay Scarpetta book is like watching Patricia Cornwell masturbate in front of a mirror. [/QUOTE] Stumbling across this sentence made me swallow my gum… ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/34 "2006-05-23T03:49:48Z")
[QUOTE=Ranchoth] The test mentions something that I’ve noticed crossing several fandoms—the eyes. Mary Sues almost _always_ have striking eyes or eye color. I don’t know if there’s some deep, Jungian signifigance to that or what. [/QUOTE] So all those family members with the tawny eyes in the _Lensman_ series, do they qualify? ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/35 "2006-05-23T04:49:40Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] So all those family members with the tawny eyes in the _Lensman_ series, do they qualify? [/QUOTE] Maybe, maybe not. Kinda like the old saying goes; “all insects are bugs, but not all bugs are insects.” ---
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/36 "2006-05-23T05:21:30Z")
[QUOTE=RealityChuck] Even earlier: Beth in **Little Women**. She is described as having a round face. Here is a picture of [Louisa May Alcott](http://www.todayinliterature.com/assets/photos/a/louisa-may-alcott-200x292.jpg). [/QUOTE] Randomly off-topic: does anyone else find that picture vaguely creepy? ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/37 "2006-05-23T06:10:54Z")
So is any character who’s just “too good to live” a Mary-Sue, even if they aren’t a stand-in for the author? E.g., would [Remedios the Beauty](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_hundred_years_of_solitude#Remedios_the_Beauty) from _One Hundred Years of Solitude_ be a Mary-Sue? ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/38 "2006-05-23T09:11:05Z")
[QUOTE=RealityChuck] Even earlier: Beth in **Little Women**. She is described as having a round face. Here is a picture of [Louisa May Alcott](http://www.todayinliterature.com/assets/photos/a/louisa-may-alcott-200x292.jpg). [/QUOTE] If you mean that Beth March is the typical “too good to live” type, then yes. If you mean that Beth March is supposed to represent the author, then I disagree of course - Jo March is well-known to be the young Alcott. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/39 "2006-05-23T10:05:33Z")
[QUOTE=Talon Karrde] I think that the main character in True Romance is a Mary Sue (Gary Stu sounds dumb) for Quentin Tarantino. [/QUOTE] Damn yes. I’ve never even thought about it before. Comic-loving, kung fu movie-loving socially awkward nerd gets hot girl and turns into action hero. I don’t know how I missed it. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/40 "2006-05-23T11:18:36Z")
Jane Austen once wrote a short parody sketch about a main character who was absolutely perfect in every way: beautiful, unfailing polite, perfectly dressed, a great singer, artist, and writers, played the piano, the violin, the harp, and twenty-five other instruments. Austen later said that she wrote that piece merely by compiling all of the suggestions for characters that she’d received from her friends and family. It’s included in the appendix of the Norton Critical Edition of _Emma_, if anyone wants to read it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759.md?page=3)