# What is a Mary Sue? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 22, 2006, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759 "2006-05-22T15:07:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2006, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/81 "2006-05-24T15:08:05Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] These days, I usually see it used to mean “any heroic larger than life character I’m not a fan of”. [/QUOTE] Jesus was a Mary Sue? ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2006, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/82 "2006-05-24T15:17:17Z")
I have realized after reading this thread and taking the Mary Sue Litmus Test that the character I am playing in a weekly tabletop RP is dangerously borderline Mary Sue. I’ll have to do something about that. ---
**Author:** ![gallows\_fodder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8c91f0/32.png) [@gallows\_fodder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gallows_fodder)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2006, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/83 "2006-05-24T16:51:05Z")
But…are Mary Sues necessarily a bad thing? I’m with **delphica** : > [@](#): > > it’s a manifestation of the author, who is too good to be true, _to the detriment of the story_. . And is it a Mary Sue if it’s a manifestation of the author, but the character is realistically drawn (not too perfect, the flaws are real flaws, etc.)? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2006, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/84 "2006-05-24T17:18:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Aren’t all the male Heinlein characters Mary Sues? Now you did it. You’re gonna bring out all the James Blish/Alexei Panshin haters to hijack the thread. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2006, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/85 "2006-05-24T17:32:47Z")
[QUOTE=Bill Door] Aren’t all the male Heinlein characters Mary Sues? Some are RAH as a young man, some as a mature man, and some as an old man. Sometimes he’s even a woman, but almost all the interesting Heinlein characters are Heinlein. [/QUOTE] Any character you create reflects on you. It has to. You put your own understanding into it and it becomes an extension of you. Every character, if you choose to use this loose a definition, then becomes a “Mary Sue.” You can’t create a character if you can’t, forgive the pun, conceive him or her. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2006, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/86 "2006-05-24T17:56:54Z")
[QUOTE=AndrewL] I have realized after reading this thread and taking the Mary Sue Litmus Test that the character I am playing in a weekly tabletop RP is dangerously borderline Mary Sue. I’ll have to do something about that. [/QUOTE] Oh don’t worry about it- almost all RPG characters are Mary Sue’s. We _all_ have a strong urge to play people like ourselves, just a little better. That is, to some degree, what RPGs are for and nobody really expects too much different (though it’s fun when someone does play something else). If you are in the company of good friend who presumably like who each other are, you ought to like each other’s Mary Sue’s and the game should still be intresting because you guys are all interacting and challenging each other. Where it gets boring is when it’s just one person’s fantasy run wild on and on and on. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2006, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/87 "2006-05-24T17:59:37Z")
“Mary Sue” was the working title for one of Buddy Holly’s greatest hits. ---
**Author:** ![Interrobang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/interrobang/32/17463_2.png) [@Interrobang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interrobang)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2006, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/88 "2006-05-24T18:35:20Z")
[QUOTE=pokey] Kay Scarpetta has to be queen mary of the sues. Reading a Kay Scarpetta book is like watching Patricia Cornwell masturbate in front of a mirror. [/QUOTE] Michael Connelly’s Harry Bosch has become the male equivalent, I think. The first few books in the series are good, but Bosch just becomes so tortured and noble and successful with the younger ladies… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2006, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/89 "2006-05-24T18:42:35Z")
I’m forced to wonder, although I’m trying not to, if Woody Allen is a Mary Sue in his movies. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2006, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/90 "2006-05-24T18:50:59Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] I’m forced to wonder, although I’m trying not to, if Woody Allen is a Mary Sue in his movies. [/QUOTE] Would you call his characters idealized in anyway? They seem more like a bale of troubles, annoyances and insecurities with a few redeeming qualities. 😉 Jim ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2006, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/91 "2006-05-24T19:00:18Z")
They’re idealized versions of him in that they’re funny, clever and (most importantly) consistently able to get women who are much more attractive, and usually much younger, than Woody’s character. It’s a stretch, but it came to mind. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2006, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/92 "2006-05-24T19:03:26Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] They’re idealized versions of him in that they’re funny, clever and (most importantly) consistently able to get women who are much more attractive, and usually much younger, than Woody’s character. It’s a stretch, but it came to mind. [/QUOTE] I see your point, though he really has gotten much younger women and he is respected more than I understand. I would say no, not a Mary Sue, but that is just my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2006, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/93 "2006-05-24T20:42:38Z")
[QUOTE=delphica] Anita Blake from Laurel K. Hamilton’s vampire porn books is another Mary Sue that comes to mind. Men (human and otherwise) lust after her, she masters every weapon she comes across – and the straw that broke the camel’s back for me – she’s tiny and eats like a bird but her vampire boy toy just forces her to shovel in the rich desserts, oh boo hoo. That is when I started to wonder if Ms. Hamilton ever emotionally progressed beyond the 8th grade – Anita is so virtuous that she turns down dessert, yet out of the goodness of her heart she will bring herself to eat it to please others. Talk about noble sacrifice! [/QUOTE] Also Merry Gentry, the heroine in her other books. The last line in one of them is something like, “Shucks, how can one mortal girl satiate the lusts of sixteen damn gorgeous immortal men?”. I fell about laughing when I read that. Hamilton’s books are only readable for laughs now. Isn’t it funny how all the elderly irascible unattractive men in Heinlein are mysteriously alluring to all the very young big breasted genius women who all desperately want children? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2006, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/94 "2006-05-25T01:12:38Z")
So, would the following characters qualify as Mary Sues? 1. John Chriton from _Farscape_ 2. Den from _Heavy Metal_ ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/95 "2006-05-26T17:20:32Z")
It seems to me that an essential part of the definition of “Mary Sue” is that it is a new character inserted into an already existing body of work. Margaret Mitchell created the world of “Gone with the Wind” all herself, so there can’t be any Mary Sues. Every fictional character has some of the author’s own personality in it. In fact, some argue that _every_ character an author creates represents some aspect of him or herself. What’s offensive about a Mary Sue is the intrusion of a new character in a known fictional medium that serves as a vehicle for wish fulfillment. [QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] I remember one of the early _novels_ though, that introduced a female character (who worked for some kind of ultra-powerful little-known proto-Section-31 intelligence branch of Starfleet) who was (as close to a direct quote I can recall) “by far the most beautiful woman James Kirk had ever seen”. [/QUOTE] I recall one of the 1980s Star Trek novels with a character called Hunter or something who had an affair with Sulu. I seem to recall that Hunter wore a feather in her cap or something. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/96 "2006-05-26T17:48:59Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] I recall one of the 1980s Star Trek novels with a character called Hunter or something who had an affair with Sulu. I seem to recall that Hunter wore a feather in her cap or something. [/QUOTE] It seems the character I was thinking of was Commander Flynn from Vonda N. McIntyre’s _Entropy Effect_. I haven’t figured out whether there was a feather involved there or whether that’s just my faulty memory. I also seem to recall that McIntyre committed the sin of bringing Flynn back in her next Star Trek novel. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/97 "2006-05-26T18:01:08Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] I recall one of the 1980s Star Trek novels with a character called Hunter or something who had an affair with Sulu. I seem to recall that Hunter wore a feather in her cap or something. [/QUOTE] There have been a lot of these in Star Trek novels. There was the “doctor” in the one with the singing cat-people. There was the woman Kirk was involved with who wanted him to join a group marriage. There was the character that came back twice with the books with the one word titles and exclamation points. There was the sickly musical genius with the seal creatures. (As you can tell, I can’t remember titles very well.) ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/98 "2006-05-26T18:07:46Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] It seems to me that an essential part of the definition of “Mary Sue” is that it is a new character inserted into an already existing body of work. Margaret Mitchell created the world of “Gone with the Wind” all herself, so there can’t be any Mary Sues. [/QUOTE] Not at all. There’s an extremely high correlation, certainly, but abusing someone else’s canon isn’t a necessity. In the Forgotten Realms series of books, Elminster is an extraordinarily powerful and intelligent wizard. I have yet to encounter anything that proves to be a stumbling block to him for more than a couple pages. He’s sensitive, smart, witty, strong, damn near omniscient, and despite being centuries old still gets play with sexy young women. Elminster is also the admitted self-idealization of author Ed Greenwood, who basically created the Forgotten Realms world. He’s a strong example of a Mary Sue, although I agree that putting a character like that into someone else’s canon would ratchet up the Mary Sue quotient by several notches. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/99 "2006-05-26T18:13:43Z")
Then we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this point, because as I said before: > [@](#): > > Every fictional character has some of the author’s own personality in it. In fact, some argue that **every** character an author creates represents some aspect of him or herself. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/100 "2006-05-26T18:36:43Z")
Lessa from Anne McCaffrey’s original _Dragonriders of Pern_ trilogy. She was the heroine from the average fifth grade girl’s reading journal, writ extra large. - teenage girl - rags to riches - impresses the new gold dragon - the hot dragon riding guy is into her - basically saves the planet - orders a bunch of sword wielding guys around I enjoy the books because I read them for the first time when I was so young, but… :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759.md?page=6)