# What is a Mary Sue?

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759>\
**Category:** Cafe Society\
**Created:** [May 22, 2006, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759 "2006-05-22T15:07:16Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 4\
**Page:** 6

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**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\
**Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/101 "2006-05-26T19:58:40Z")

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[QUOTE=acsenray]  
Then we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this point, because as I said before:  
[/QUOTE]

Maybe. Mary Sue-ism and self-insertion are often intermixed, and I might be conflating them. Still, there’s a difference between characters reflecting facets of the author’s personality and a character who the author explicitly claims is his avatar in the world. Mind, I don’t begrudge Greenwood this, as I firmly believe the creator of a world can do what he damn well pleases with it. It’s just a very blatant example of self-insertion and self-idealization.

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**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\
**Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/102 "2006-05-26T21:35:01Z")

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[QUOTE=BayleDomon]  
Not at all. There’s an extremely high correlation, certainly, but abusing someone else’s canon isn’t a necessity.

In the Forgotten Realms series of books, Elminster is an extraordinarily powerful and intelligent wizard. I have yet to encounter anything that proves to be a stumbling block to him for more than a couple pages. He’s sensitive, smart, witty, strong, damn near omniscient, and despite being centuries old still gets play with sexy young women. Elminster is also the admitted self-idealization of author Ed Greenwood, who basically created the Forgotten Realms world. He’s a strong example of a Mary Sue, although I agree that putting a character like that into someone else’s canon would ratchet up the Mary Sue quotient by several notches.  
[/QUOTE]

IIRC, I read an interview where Greenwood said that Elminster is not based on him or supposed to be him.

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**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\
**Post date:** [May 26, 2006, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/103 "2006-05-26T22:10:35Z")

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[QUOTE=Dr. Rieux]  
IIRC, I read an interview where Greenwood said that Elminster is not based on him or supposed to be him.  
[/QUOTE]

That so? I could have sworn I’d read as much in an afterword he wrote in one of his books. If that’s the case, I retract that argument entirely. 😛

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**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\
**Post date:** [May 27, 2006, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-a-mary-sue/357759/104 "2006-05-27T03:19:36Z")

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[QUOTE=Dr. Rieux]  
IIRC, I read an interview where Greenwood said that Elminster is not based on him or supposed to be him.  
[/QUOTE]

Not to cast undue doubt, but that’s also _exactly_ what a Mary Sue author might say if you asked them about it, to their face.

“He’s completely NOT based on me! He has BLONDE hair, and both of _my_ parents are still alive!” 😃

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