What is Atheism?

I see the distinctions that you are all making. I understand the definitions. I no longer profess to be an atheist because the definitions don’t fit me.

andros - I see why someone with your definition of atheist would find a dogmatic atheist humorous, I just don’t see why you didn’t read my posts and realize that I don’t fit your definition. I thank you for your recent longer and more thoughful post and for restraining from further rolling of your smiley eyes.

I don’t want to apply dogma to someone else, I want to be able to easily explain my own dogma.

This is why I started this thread. It came to my attention that people were not understanding the word ‘atheist’ the way I meant it. I wanted a new word or a clarification of the existing one. I am fairly clear on the various flovors of atheism described in this thread. But I am not willing to be limited by them. Like andros said, I think that forcing yourself into a category can be limiting. However, I think that limit is self imposed. I think that the words themselves are useful in communicating our beliefs. The metaphors are limited because, for example, it is so easy to see that a detailed observation of the surface of the pond would reveal the presence of fish (or lack thereof), not to mention the fact that we can easily pierce the surface.

So, I get the feeling that no one has a word for someone who denies the existence of any spiritual anything. Too bad. I guess I’m just an Orbist. Any other Orbists out there? argybarg - how about you?

Anyone read Godel, Escher, Bach? In it, the word meta-agnostic is coined meaning someone who isn’t sure if they’re an agnostic or not. Probably desribes a lot of people. Then there’s the meta-meta-agnostics who are not sure if they’re meta-agnostics or not. :slight_smile: Funny book for the first half and then it gets extremely deep into discussion of DNA. I don’t think I ever managed to wade through to the end. There are definitely pieces of Taoism and other philosophies that are applicable whether there is a spiritual world or not.

My friend here IRL is trying to convince me that I could hold all my currently professed beliefs and still accept reincarnation. He proposes a pattern of particles that upon your death spontaneously transmutes to another body like an electron that doesn’t move fluidly (like in some modern theories of physiscs). This pattern would have it’s pattern some limited record of all previous ‘lives’ and would influence the growth of the new creature. I can’t make this click with growing and declining populations (he is now making a futile attempt at proposing an alien species whose population changes reflect ours inversly). No, I COULD deny the existence of any god and still accept reincarnation. But, my denial of any spirtual realm prohibits any acceptance of reincarnation. Oh, now he says what about for just a few limited people. No. Why would this be? How would it come about? It’s not that way.

Anyone who is firm in their beliefs is going to find other beliefs a bit silly. The easy way that weak atheists and agnostics can respect other opinions is a good thing. I don’t have much problem respecting other people’s beliefs but there is still sometimes a point where I shake my head in wonder that anyone could possibly delude themselves so thoroughly.

I will accept strong atheist as describing a part of my beliefs but it is only the tip of the iceberg. Also, I submit that in a conversation with 10 random people the likelihood of someone knowing our definition of strong atheist is minimal. So I will have to describe myself as someone who denies the presence of any god or any spiritual being, object, or realm. Does that seem clear to you? Does anyone have any questions about what I mean? If so, I hereby coin the term Orbist to mean anyone who denies the presence of a god or any spiritual being, object, or realm.

Well, I see why weak atheism and agnosticism seem similar. In fact, I believe they are very similar, just not identical. I am not offended when someone blurs the line between weak atheism and agnosticism, but if they really want to know the difference I’ll be happy to point it out.
I just shy away from the pronouncement that something must be forever unknown. It’s as if to say, “Prove it to me and I still won’t believe it.” I find that attitude to be unreasonable.

I am actually more concerned when they confuse weak and strong atheism. From my point of view, strong atheism is very analogous to a religious faith. It is belief in the unknowable without proof. It is not merely failing to believe in something, it also denies the subjective experiences of every believer, which is something I cannot with certainty do. I may have my doubts about someone’s apprehension of the divine, but I cannot categorically dismiss it just because I didn’t have the same experience. I usually make the distinction known between strong and weak atheism because I do not wish anyone to think that I necessarily believe them to be deluded before the discussion is even begun. Plus, claiming certain knowledge of an absolute negative condition strikes me as intellectually dishonest in a way that someone claiming subjective knowledge of a positive condition does not.

Have at you, VileOrb. Believe what you will, call yourself what you will. Personally, I think I will never have any definite proof (or substantive evidence) that nothing supernatural exists, and therefore will never be an Orbist. I have no proof that God does not exist. And you don’t either.

But then, I’m not an atheist either. I much prefer to describe my beliefs when asked than to allow myself the comfort and safety of a single label. Whatever floats you boat, but please make sure not to deny other people their labels. If someone calls himself an atheist, it’s not always the most politic of responses to call him a liar.

Oh, just because I cannot say with utter certainty that a person is totally wrong, that doesn’t mean I don’t think that some beliefs aren’t ludicrous! Some more than others, obviously, run so counter to what I think likely that I definitely do think they are wholly unreasonable. Being a weak atheist does not mean that I reach no conclusions at all. I freely admit that as far as I am concerned, God does not exist. I just realize that I don’t know it with certainty. There is, after all, plenty of anecdotal evidence to weigh in on the opposite sided of the argument.

As far as the existence of a soul, the spirit realm, and other things metaphysical, I take the same route. I don’t think they exist. I am willing to revise that should I receive a ghostly visitation. Heck there are some folks I’d really like to talk to if I could. I think most people who are strong atheists generally believe that these things are just as fictitious as they think God is. I think that particular philosophy is known as materialism.

Exactly. “Materialist” would seem to describe your position quite well, vileOrb. Have you found it wanting in some area?

Ptahlis - You found it! Materialism IS very close to Orbism. Extremely close. Check this link.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_vitzthum/materialism.html

And Epicurus is one of the founders! That’s great, I’ve alway loved eating and cooking. How did my philosophy class miss this one? I’m going to have to drop in on the old professor and question him on this one, next time I’m in Baltimore.

I haven’t read the whole description yet. They’re a little more concerned with the history and less with the philosophy than I would like. I will have to do more research on this.

Thanks a lot Ptahlis. This is exactly the king of information I was hoping to get from this thread.

I’m so excited I forgot to proofread. Sorry. I think you can figure out what I was trying to say.

Woohoo! I am now the King of Information! Capitalize that next time Vile Orb or I’ll send the royal dragoons out after you. What? Huh? My Royal Vizier informs me that the King of Information has no dragoons, just librarians. Oh well. Carry on then.


Seriously though, I’m glad I could help. And despite what has been said before about labels, it actually does feel pretty good if you find a group whose philosophy you identify with doesn’t it?