# What is Calvinism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 4, 2008, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-calvinism/471068 "2008-11-04T16:17:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-calvinism/471068/1 "2008-11-04T16:17:16Z")
I can read the [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism). It just seems that maybe there would be a better way of finding what the general philosophy is. It seems a bit fatalist in that God chooses whom he will save rather than the individuals own work. Am I understanding that right? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-calvinism/471068/2 "2008-11-04T16:30:20Z")
[http://www.religioustolerance.org/calvinism.htm](http://www.religioustolerance.org/calvinism.htm) ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-calvinism/471068/3 "2008-11-04T17:05:05Z")
Are there any Calvinists today? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Dave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Great\_Dave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Dave)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-calvinism/471068/4 "2008-11-04T17:27:00Z")
Perhaps you’ve heard of Presbyterians. They are probably the largest denomination in the Reformed branch of Protestantism, which would also include the Reformed Church of America, the Christian Reformed Church in N. America, at Dutch Reformed Church, and, somewhat embarassingly, the South African Reformed Church. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-calvinism/471068/5 "2008-11-04T17:31:54Z")
I thought Calvinism was the religion that let you make up the rules as you went along? ---
**Author:** ![Carson\_O\_Genic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cdc98d/32.png) [@Carson\_O\_Genic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carson_O_Genic)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-calvinism/471068/6 "2008-11-04T17:37:45Z")
> [@Great\_Dave](#): > > (snip)… and, somewhat embarassingly, the South African Reformed Church. (tuneless whistling) Do tell more about this “somewhat”. (tuneless whistling) ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-calvinism/471068/7 "2008-11-04T17:51:34Z")
> [@WarmNPrickly](#): > > Are there any Calvinists today? Well… Westboro Baptist Church follows (or claims to) the T.U.L.I.P. doctrines of Calvinism. (Be careful googling them - their site is definitely NSFW :eek: ). ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-calvinism/471068/8 "2008-11-04T17:59:03Z")
Lotsa Calvinists in my area. Most of my relatives are Calvinist, my dad was raised Calvinist. TULIP theology is (or was, at least) a major part of youth religious education there. They schismed a lot in our area, though. One town of 2000 has 4 Calvinist churches: Orthodox Presbyterian, Conservative Presbyterian (the regular Presbys got too liberal for them), Reformed, and Christian Reformed. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-calvinism/471068/9 "2008-11-04T18:12:32Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > I thought Calvinism was the religion that let you make up the rules as you went along? No, that’s Calvin and Hobbes-ism. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-calvinism/471068/10 "2008-11-04T18:15:42Z")
> [@WarmNPrickly](#): > > I can read the [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism). It seems a bit fatalist in that God chooses whom he will save rather than the individuals own work. Sure, but you got problems either way: If it’s not all God, he’s not omnipotent. Man is in charge of his own destiny. If it’s not all Man, he shouldn’t be condemned for a system God created. The whole salvation theology gets a bit discombobled once you get past the big theologic pronouncements. And you probably do have Calvinism right: the saved were “predestined” to be saved before they were born. Salvation is not of works. Not even work involved in “I choose to be saved.” It’s just so nutty that you don’t think you could have it right. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-calvinism/471068/11 "2008-11-04T18:18:27Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > [http://www.religioustolerance.org/calvinism.htm](http://www.religioustolerance.org/calvinism.htm) Wow. What a bleak philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-calvinism/471068/12 "2008-11-04T18:23:06Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > And you probably do have Calvinism right: the saved were “predestined” to be saved before they were born. Salvation is not of works. Not even work involved in “I choose to be saved.” It’s just so nutty that you don’t think you could have it right. Or, as Jonathan Edwards put it: > [@](#): > > The observation from the words that I would now insist upon is this. – “There is nothing that keeps wicked men at any one moment out of hell, but the mere pleasure of God.” – By the mere pleasure of God, I mean his sovereign pleasure, his arbitrary will, restrained by no obligation, hindered by no manner of difficulty, any more than if nothing else but God’s mere will had in the least degree, or in any respect whatsoever, any hand in the preservation of wicked men one moment. – The truth of this observation may appear by the following considerations. . . . > > God has laid himself under no obligation, by any promise to keep any natural man out of hell one moment. God certainly has made no promises either of eternal life, or of any deliverance or preservation from eternal death, but what are contained in the covenant of grace, the promises that are given in Christ, in whom all the promises are yea and amen. But surely they have no interest in the promises of the covenant of grace who are not the children of the covenant, who do not believe in any of the promises, and have no interest in the Mediator of the covenant. . . . > > The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince; and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-calvinism/471068/13 "2008-11-04T18:26:07Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > And you probably do have Calvinism right: the saved were “predestined” to be saved before they were born. Therefore there is no reason to act nice or do good works or anything: You go to Heaven or Hell based entirely on whim, so nothing we do here matters in the slightest. [This is similar to Antinomianism](http://www.rotten.com/library/religion/heresy/antinomianism/): > [@](#): > > Perhaps the greatest heresy of all time, Antinomianism preaches that souls are saved only by God’s grace… and so there’s absolutely no reason to refrain from every imaginable vice and sin. > > [snip] > > In plainer English, the Antinomian Gnostics were sort of “anti-Buddhists,” who believed that souls were endlessly reincarnated until the owner of the soul had experienced every imaginable vice, at which point they ascend to a higher realm. That last part doesn’t really follow but, hey, anti-Buddhists who believe reincarnation is an endless series of parties! ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Dave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Great\_Dave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Dave)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-calvinism/471068/14 "2008-11-04T18:33:27Z")
> [@Carson\_O\_Genic](#): > > (tuneless whistling) Do tell more about this “somewhat”. (tuneless whistling) Well, I’m not entirely up on the details, but IIRC, this was the church of the Boers that helped justify apartheid. > [@Chief Pedant](#): > > Sure, but you got problems either way: > > If it’s not all God, he’s not omnipotent. Man is in charge of his own destiny. > > If it’s not all Man, he shouldn’t be condemned for a system God created. > > The whole salvation theology gets a bit discombobled once you get past the big theologic pronouncements. > > And you probably do have Calvinism right: the saved were “predestined” to be saved before they were born. Salvation is not of works. Not even work involved in “I choose to be saved.” It’s just so nutty that you don’t think you could have it right. I started having my doubts in catechism class one Sunday morn before the service (I was raised CRC) when the pastor explained thusly- imagine that all of us sinners are drops careening over Niagra Falls to Hell. God sticks out a bucket and catches some of us- but only the ones that he has preordained to be the elect. Why not just get a bucket big enough to catch everyone? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-calvinism/471068/15 "2008-11-04T18:35:36Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Therefore there is no reason to act nice or do good works or anything: You go to Heaven or Hell based entirely on whim, so nothing we do here matters in the slightest. Just so you know, Calvinism rejects that viewpoint, too. Calvin would answer that it’s impossible to do good works…really good works, without God’s sanctifying grace, and if you have God’s sanctifying grace, it will give you the power to resist sin. Besides, Calvin would say, if you do good works or act nice just because you want to get into heaven, do you really think that’s meritous? Do good things out of love for your fellow man and in order to follow God’s commandments. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-calvinism/471068/16 "2008-11-04T18:42:05Z")
According to Calvinist theology, Great Dave, God could do just that but has no reason to do so. In fact, in Calvinism, as well as I can understand, God has no reason to do anything and basically just chooses at random. This probably makes it unique among all Christian faiths. I consider them to be a sort of Unholy Triumvirate, along with Unitarian-Universalists and the Westboro baptists. Each as wrong as they can be in different ways. Repent, Heretics! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-calvinism/471068/17 "2008-11-04T18:52:03Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I consider them to be a sort of Unholy Triumvirate, along with Unitarian-Universalists and the Westboro baptists. Each as wrong as they can be in different ways. > > Repent, Heretics! 😃 I’ll remember you lumping me in with the Westboro baptists. ---
**Author:** ![Carson\_O\_Genic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cdc98d/32.png) [@Carson\_O\_Genic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carson_O_Genic)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-calvinism/471068/18 "2008-11-04T19:04:11Z")
> [@Great\_Dave](#): > > Well, I’m not entirely up on the details, but IIRC, this was the church of the Boers that helped justify apartheid. (stops whistling) Yer off the hook then. Yes, current developments hold that blacks have no soul, which doesn’t sound so bad since lots of people don’t get one either, except blacks have less than that, and that God is punishing those formerly in power but will return it once the blacks (and other lower forms of human life) " return to their traditional role" (i.e. place in society) under apartheid. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Dave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Great\_Dave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Dave)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-calvinism/471068/19 "2008-11-04T19:20:19Z")
I had hoped they would’ve had some doctrinal revisions by now… ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-calvinism/471068/20 "2008-11-04T19:34:57Z")
> [@Carson\_O\_Genic](#): > > (stops whistling) Yer off the hook then. Yes, current developments hold that blacks have no soul, which doesn’t sound so bad since lots of people don’t get one either, except blacks have less than that, and that God is punishing those formerly in power but will return it once the blacks (and other lower forms of human life) " return to their traditional role" (i.e. place in society) under apartheid. In 1997, speaking before the Truth and Reconciliation Committe, a spokesman for the Dutch Reformed Church “confessed to great wrongs in the past and said the Church was guilty of spiritual and structural injustices under apartheid.” In 1998, the Dutch Reformed Church announced “apartheid was wrong and sinful, not simply in its effects and operations, but in its fundamental nature.” The Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa did throw its support behind apartheid in the past, and still hasn’t fully come to terms with its past actions and racist attitudes, but your description of it is completely off the mark. Are you maybe trying to describe the Afrikaans Protestant Church, which split off of the Dutch Reformed Church in 1987? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-calvinism/471068.md?page=2)