# What is Capitalism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 2, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-capitalism/716638 "2015-04-02T17:51:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2015, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-capitalism/716638/41 "2015-04-08T23:29:43Z")
[QUOTE=Thing Fish] Although capitalist markets have proven to be extremely efficient producers of wealth, the history of capitalism demonstrates that its natural tendency is to concentrate more and more of the wealth in fewer and fewer hands, and the chance that a person not born into an elite family can rise into that strata by his or her own merits becomes less and less. Another flaw of capitalism that is becoming more urgently relevant in our time is that there is no economic incentive for any producer to take the environmental damage its production does into account; this is known as “the tragedy of the commons”. [/QUOTE] Do you have a cite demonstrating this? Should be easy enough to demonstrate, and it’s one of the basic tenets of Communist theory that wealth will so concentrate. My own view is there are more millionaires today than at any time in history, and that the number of people world wide moving from extreme poverty up the scale grows every year, but if you have a cite showing the opposite I’d love to see it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2015, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-capitalism/716638/42 "2015-04-08T23:50:16Z")
> [@Kropotkin](#): > > If by modern economists you mean people with advanced degrees in economics who work and publish in the field, there are lots of modern economists who do not reject the labour theory of value. If you mean “non-Marxist economists,” that is more accurate. They do not so much reject the labour theory of value so much as ask and answer very different questions while ignoring the questions it sets out to answer. I know there are still Marxists – but, there are still Marxist **economists?!** ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2015, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-capitalism/716638/43 "2015-04-08T23:54:10Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Do you have a cite demonstrating this? [Cite.](http://www.amazon.com/Capital-Twenty-First-Century-Thomas-Piketty/dp/1491534656) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2015, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-capitalism/716638/44 "2015-04-08T23:55:12Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > I think the OP has it right. The essence of capitalism is private ownership of the means of production, with said production being organized primarily to maximize the profits being made by those private owners. Does “state capitalism” not count, then? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-capitalism/716638/45 "2015-04-09T00:04:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Cite.](http://www.amazon.com/Capital-Twenty-First-Century-Thomas-Piketty/dp/1491534656) Your cite is to an Amazon book I have to order, read and then interpret in light of what I’m asking for?? Even in the description it says this: > [@](#): > > Piketty shows that modern economic growth and the diffusion of knowledge have allowed us to avoid inequalities on the apocalyptic scale predicted by Karl Marx. But we have not modified the deep structures of capital and inequality as much as we thought in the optimistic decades following World War II. The main driver of inequality—the tendency of returns on capital to exceed the rate of economic growth—today threatens to generate extreme inequalities that stir discontent and undermine democratic values. But economic trends are not acts of God. Political action has curbed dangerous inequalities in the past, Piketty says, and may do so again. Which seems to indicate that the question I was asking isn’t really answered here definitively, even if I accept that Thomas Piketty is THE definitive expert on this and his book is absolute gospel, unquestioned by everyone who is anyone wrt knowledge of this subject. Do you have anything else? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-capitalism/716638/46 "2015-04-09T00:16:41Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Although capitalist markets have proven to be extremely efficient producers of wealth, the history of capitalism demonstrates that its natural tendency is to concentrate more and more of the wealth in fewer and fewer hands, and the chance that a person not born into an elite family can rise into that strata by his or her own merits becomes less and less. Another flaw of capitalism that is becoming more urgently relevant in our time is that there is no economic incentive for any producer to take the environmental damage its production does into account; this is known as “the tragedy of the commons”. Capitalist philosophy, however, would look very unfavorably on nepotism. In the philosophical underpinnings, the market tries to find the best-suited candidate for every role, while we - as individuals - try to find the role that appeals to us most, and as the result of compromise, end up with a satisfied work force producing what society deems necessary. Any attempt to subvert that is harmful to society. Nepotism is a trait of humans, not Capitalism. And many (possibly the majority of) wealthy people do not give their children any role in their business that wasn’t earned. Though certainly, many do. But in either case, Capitalism would always approve of public education and any mechanism that helped to make the market more efficient and disapprove of any which did the opposite. It does not hold the wealthy any higher than the poor. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-capitalism/716638/47 "2015-04-09T03:32:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > But your organized crime model is a rather poor one. The reason they shoot each other is to eliminate free exchange, because smaller operators keep moving in and underselling them. That’s about as far from a free market or an exchange between equals as can be imagined. It’s not a model. It’s existing phenomena. If you’re going to study how capitalism works, you have to include illegal capitalism. It may be far from an exchange between equals but most exchanges in both capitalism and the free market are not between equals. So I stand by my point; a free market is not an automatic product of a capitalism system. In fact, most powerful capitalists would work to eliminate free market competition as much as possible. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-capitalism/716638/48 "2015-04-09T03:36:13Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > But your organized crime model is a rather poor one. The reason they shoot each other is to eliminate free exchange, because smaller operators keep moving in and underselling them. That’s about as far from a free market or an exchange between equals as can be imagined. Well? Absolute economic freedom includes the freedom to murder competitors. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-capitalism/716638/49 "2015-04-09T17:45:43Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > So the capitalist and the socialist take each other seriously (enough to engage with each other) and neither take me seriously, huh? > > \*\* looks for flounce smiley to post \*\* Nah, you were talking sense, while Shodan was talking about irrelevancies; capitalism is not about “how to barter.”\* You\* didn’t need smacking down. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-capitalism/716638/50 "2015-04-09T17:49:39Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Your cite is to an Amazon book I have to order, read and then interpret in light of what I’m asking for?? Even in the description it says this: > > Which seems to indicate that the question I was asking isn’t really answered here definitively, even if I accept that Thomas Piketty is THE definitive expert on this and his book is absolute gospel, unquestioned by everyone who is anyone wrt knowledge of this subject. > > Do you have anything else? Well, it’s definitely a present-day concern: > **[Why Inequality is the Real Cause of Our Ongoing Terrible Economy](https://robertreich.org/post/9789891366)** > > THE 5 percent of Americans with the highest incomes now account for 37 percent of all consumer purchases, according to the latest research from Moody’s Analytics. That should come as no surprise.... > **[Joseph Stiglitz on Wealth and Income Inequality](https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2014/12/joseph-stiglitz-economics-must-address-wealth-income-inequality.html)** > > This interview with Joesph Stiglitz is pretty subversive for a talk with a Serious Economist. [http://seekingalpha.com/article/1155341-krugman-is-wrong-on-inequality](http://seekingalpha.com/article/1155341-krugman-is-wrong-on-inequality) ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2015, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-capitalism/716638/51 "2015-04-11T01:33:02Z")
> [@sweeteviljesus](#): > > This is a term that i see bandied about here to mean private ownership of the means of production, the opposite of Communism, total disdain for any regulation, the philosophy of greedy slime who plot child enslavement in smoke-filled rooms, etc. > > To me, Capitalism is simply the first definition in my list. It is not the opposite of Communism (well, it may be for certain definitions) nor does it inherently despise regulations. The Monty Burns caricature of the Capitalist is a straw man for the purposes of debate. > > Is this contrary to accepted definitions? > > Thanks, > Rob Well, I guess that depends on what you mean by of “means of production”. Roads produce things (transportation, commerce) but are for the most part not privately owned. The air produces things (life) but is not privately owned. Police, prosecutors and judges produce things (justice, the rule of law), but are not privately owned. National parks produce things, but are not privately owned. The Fed produces things (money, for example) but is not privately owned. Legislatures produce things (laws) but are not privately owned. Pubic schools produce educated workers, but are not privately owned. Free markets are not the same as capitalism, as other people have said. Capitalism depends on government regulations that protect and create things like copyrights, patents, trademarks, and corporations. Capitalism depends on government to restrain and contain free markets so that capitalism can thrive. Without government, anyone could sell “Harry Potter” books, not just the copyright owner. Anyone could sell drugs, not just the patent owner. Anyone could suck oil out of the ground, not just the one who owned the mineral rights. Corporations couldn’t sue each other without courts (and in fact couldn’t exist at all). “Private ownership of the means of production” is a common definition capitalism. But there are no working examples where _all_ the means of production are privately owned. Generally the most essential means of production are owned publically. They’re not entrusted to private hands. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2015, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-capitalism/716638/52 "2015-04-11T01:57:32Z")
Also, I should add national defense. The defense of the country is not entrusted to private hands. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2015, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-capitalism/716638/53 "2015-04-11T23:06:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I know there are still Marxists – but, there are still Marxist **economists?!** A short, incomplete list, not restricted to living ones, is here: [List of Marxian economists - Wikipedia](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Marxian_economists) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-capitalism/716638.md?page=2)