# What is centrism in American politics today? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2016, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-centrism-in-american-politics-today/750410 "2016-03-27T23:39:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-centrism-in-american-politics-today/750410/41 "2016-03-31T16:52:04Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Or, conversely, it could be that centrists deny that they are conservatives. 😛 Of course, the reality is that most centrists are just that…in the middle between hard core left wingers/liberals and right wingers/conservatives, perhaps leaning one way on some issues and the other on others. > > Your argument reminds me of atheists trying to tell agnostics that they are REALLY just cowardly atheists. I gave examples of liberal ideas that are widely supported, this is less about what people say and more about what their actions show. Liberal ideas are very popular, liberals themselves not, because people are peasants who are too stupid to know what’s good for them 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2016, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-centrism-in-american-politics-today/750410/42 "2016-04-02T02:47:22Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > I gave examples of liberal ideas that are widely supported, this is less about what people say and more about what their actions show. Liberal ideas are very popular, liberals themselves not, because people are peasants who are too stupid to know what’s good for them 😃 ^You answer your own questions. Any political movement of the left-regardless of its ideological content-that does not have a popular orientation is little more then an exercise in intellectual and emotional masturbation. ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2016, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-centrism-in-american-politics-today/750410/43 "2016-04-02T12:04:29Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Whatever your own lean what would you put forth as centrist positions? > > Are there any politicians that you would consider as being centrist in today’s political world? I consider myself, by American standards, economically centrist and socially liberal/libertarian. This makes me practically a right-wing anarchist here in Germany! My reported scores: Economic Left/Right: -0.25 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.1 So, I am very definitely economic centrist with a tiny push left, and strongly Libertarian vs Authoritarian, very much as I expected. Centrist positions: gradualism vs revolutionary change, support of capitalism in general but with common-sense anti-trust and environmental regulations, free trade, public-option for health care but not single payer, public schools being well-funded but possible support for vouchers, marijuana decriminalization (61% support!), same-sex marriage, limited but actual welfare state, abortion as ‘safe, legal and rare’, real sex-education in schools, lowering the cost of higher education, some agricultural subsidies but nothing like the huge levels there are now, support for skilled immigration and ‘multiculturalism’ but belief in the importance of integration as the goal, and many more. Obama and Clinton are both centrist politicians that I am comfortable and happy to support. Michael Bloomberg is an economic centrist but a nanny-state authoritarian. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2016, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-centrism-in-american-politics-today/750410/44 "2016-04-02T14:54:07Z")
I represent centrism in America today. Anyone more liberal than I am is a communist. Anyone more conservative than I am is fascist. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-centrism-in-american-politics-today/750410/45 "2016-04-02T16:12:23Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I represent centrism in America today. Anyone more liberal than I am is a communist. Anyone more conservative than I am is fascist. I bet you drive just at the right speed, too. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2016, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-centrism-in-american-politics-today/750410/46 "2016-04-02T16:28:09Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I am a centrist by European standards. This puts me on the far left fringe of the American political spectrum. > > … > > The Democratic Party would be center-right in Europe. Yes indeed. Just to show how the UK differs from the US, our Prime Minister endorses: - strict gun control (not even for home defence :eek:) - the National Health Service (taxes pay for health insurance for all) - abortion - gay marriage - evolution - minimum wage and he belongs to the right-wing Conservative party. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2016, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-centrism-in-american-politics-today/750410/47 "2016-04-02T16:56:50Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Yes indeed. > Just to show how the UK differs from the US, our Prime Minister endorses: > > - strict gun control (not even for home defence :eek:) > - the National Health Service (taxes pay for health insurance for all) > - abortion > - gay marriage > - evolution > - minimum wage > > and he belongs to the right-wing Conservative party. 🆒 I would somewhat dispute that Cameron _supports_ the NHS in actuality. He _accepts_ it, sort of. But I wouldn’t say he’s _fond_ of it. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-centrism-in-american-politics-today/750410/48 "2016-04-02T17:23:59Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Yes indeed. > Just to show how the UK differs from the US, our Prime Minister endorses: > > - strict gun control (not even for home defence :eek:) > - the National Health Service (taxes pay for health insurance for all) > - abortion > - gay marriage > - evolution > - minimum wage > > and he belongs to the right-wing Conservative party. 🆒 The silly “zomg America’s so much more conservative then the rest of the world that Obama would be a Legitimist advocating restoring the House of Bourbon in France!!!:):D:):D” is a retarded trope that needs to be euthanized as quickly as possible. Keep in mind most European conservatives have been far more hardcore austerians then Obama ever was and quite open about measures such as raising the retirement age. Most Republican politicians basically accept evolution and minimum wage while I might note that NHS is more comparable to Medicare in practical political terms in that it’s an already established ultra-popular program (and of course as others note, the Tory vultures are obsessed with cutting). I might further add that most Tory MPs voting against the measure legalizing gay marriage. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2016, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-centrism-in-american-politics-today/750410/49 "2016-04-02T17:42:45Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I bet you drive just at the right speed, too. In the US? The proper speed seems to be 10-over, except in school zones where there are speed cameras, and if it is snowing heavily, the proper speed is reduced to only 10-over. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-centrism-in-american-politics-today/750410/50 "2016-04-02T17:52:52Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The silly “zomg America’s so much more conservative then the rest of the world that Obama would be a Legitimist advocating restoring the House of Bourbon in France!!!:):D:):D” is a retarded trope [snip] Actually that points looks like it, because it is clear that you have to resort to a straw man to make it. Among Republicans evolution is on the way out. > **[The Growing Partisan Divide on Evolution | BillMoyers.com](https://billmoyers.com/2014/01/17/the-growing-partisan-divide-on-evolution/)** > > The percentage of Republicans that believe humans evolved over time has dropped significantly in the past four years. Just about the only part that looks to check as European conservatives being more conservative than the Americans are in economical issues, but even there the picture is not as clear as you want it to be. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2016, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-centrism-in-american-politics-today/750410/51 "2016-04-02T18:32:08Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > [snip] > > Actually that points looks like it, because it is clear that you have to resort to a straw man to make it. I was being somewhat hyperbolic but I’ve seen people unironically argue on this forum and elsewhere that Barack Obama and even _Bernie Sanders_ would be right-wingers in an European political context. > [@](#): > > Among Republicans evolution is on the way out. > > [The Growing Partisan Divide on Evolution | BillMoyers.com](http://billmoyers.com/2014/01/17/the-growing-partisan-divide-on-evolution/) Which is why I said Republican _politicians_. George W. Bush, John McCain, and Mitt Romney all had no problem with evolutionary theory and I highly doubt a thrice-divorce New York billionaire whose biggest theological influence is modernist heretic Norman Vincent Peale does either. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-centrism-in-american-politics-today/750410/52 "2016-04-02T20:06:12Z")
And that is a valid point. Any country’s political leadership are going to be the definition of where that country’s “center” is. But, given that politicians are well known for dissembling and subterfuge, effectively subverting the genuine democratic process, it is not clear whether the political “center” accurately reflects the broader popular “center”. I believe that most people, or at least many, when led to thoroughly examine the details of an issue, will often choose a position or compromise that does not fit the general doctrine of the “side” they claim to identify with. Factionalization is very clearly not a benefit to the system, or at least not to the leaders of factions. It is the overtly dogmatic ideologues that we ought to oppose, not all of those _other fucking morons_. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2016, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-centrism-in-american-politics-today/750410/53 "2016-04-02T21:24:22Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Which is why I said Republican _politicians_. George W. Bush, John McCain, and Mitt Romney all had no problem with evolutionary theory and I highly doubt a thrice-divorce New York billionaire whose biggest theological influence is modernist heretic Norman Vincent Peale does either. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/02/AR2005080201686.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/02/AR2005080201686.html) > [@](#): > > Although he said that curriculum decisions should be made by school districts rather than the federal government, Bush told Texas newspaper reporters in a group interview at the White House on Monday that he believes that intelligent design should be taught alongside evolution as competing theories. > > “Both sides ought to be properly taught . . . so people can understand what the debate is about,” he said, according to an official transcript of the session. Bush added: “Part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought. . . . You’re asking me whether or not people ought to be exposed to different ideas, and the answer is yes.” > > These comments drew sharp criticism yesterday from opponents of the theory, who said there is no scientific evidence to support it and no educational basis for teaching it. I was aware of that dog whistle that was done years ago, As for Donald Trump, seeing how he has fallen for anti vaccination and the denial of human caused climate change I have to wonder of far his crank magnetism goes so I would not be surprised to find that he is also in favor of “teaching the controversy” as Trump has “evolved” into dumping his more progressive past positions. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2016, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-centrism-in-american-politics-today/750410/54 "2016-04-02T23:53:09Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > In the US? The proper speed seems to be 10-over, except in school zones where there are speed cameras, and if it is snowing heavily, the proper speed is reduced to only 10-over. Actually, I was signalling TriPolar that I got his joke. Presumably he was riffing on a quip by comedian George Carlin. > [@](#): > > Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-centrism-in-american-politics-today/750410/55 "2016-04-03T01:12:47Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/02/AR2005080201686.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/02/AR2005080201686.html) > I was aware of that dog whistle that was done years ago, As for Donald Trump, seeing how he has fallen for anti vaccination and the denial of human caused climate change I have to wonder of far his crank magnetism goes so I would not be surprised to find that he is also in favor of “teaching the controversy” as Trump has “evolved” into dumping his more progressive past positions. It’s clear that was a brief line of pandering and not consistent with [Bush’s actual views on evolution](http://scienceblogs.com/intersection/2008/12/09/get-this-apparently-george-w-b/). Note that European countries such as Britain has its own problems with creationism being taught in [publically-funded schools](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/11578432/Creationism-still-taught-in-faith-schools-despite-Government-funding-threat.html). As for TRUMP’s positions, note that while pseudoscience is a trait that all prone too, certain demographics are more prone to particular varieties of it. Much as young earth creationism is a sibboleth in many fundamentalist circles, the same is the case with anti-vaccination in parts of the upper middle class. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-centrism-in-american-politics-today/750410/56 "2016-04-03T14:57:09Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > It’s clear that was a brief line of pandering and not consistent with [Bush’s actual views on evolution](http://scienceblogs.com/intersection/2008/12/09/get-this-apparently-george-w-b/). Note that European countries such as Britain has its own problems with creationism being taught in [publically-funded schools](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/11578432/Creationism-still-taught-in-faith-schools-despite-Government-funding-threat.html). As for TRUMP’s positions, note that while pseudoscience is a trait that all prone too, certain demographics are more prone to particular varieties of it. Much as young earth creationism is a sibboleth in many fundamentalist circles, the same is the case with anti-vaccination in parts of the upper middle class. You claimed that Bush had no trouble, in reality he had, and even in the interview it is clear that the wants to have it both ways. As for the England red herring: That goes for local government entities that are forbidden also to teach creationism in government funded schools, and considering that the article refers to new rules one has to assume that most of the politicians in power in Britain favor those rules against teaching creationism. Bottom line: Creationism or ID has no place in public schools. And finally: there is no Democratic candidate to the presidency or very important Democratic congress people that is against vaccines. And in the USA there was not much of an upper class or middle class divide regarding anti vaccine beliefs; until 2009 the main difference was age, younger people are more willing to believe in anti vaccination because they never experienced the struggles of the past; but since 2009 there is a noticeable partisan difference. With big Republicans politicians disturbingly being more willing to set this as a wedge issue and appearing to be then more in favor of “choice”. A very typical move for panderer and denier alike. [http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/02/vaccines-bipartisan-support-114915](http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/02/vaccines-bipartisan-support-114915) > [@](#): > > Public support for immunizations is largely bipartisan as well. According to a recently released survey from the Pew Research Center, the public opinion on vaccine requirements, for example, divides much more by age than by political affiliation. This may be a function of the fact that younger people are less likely to have seen the diseases the vaccines are designed to protect against. (In other words, vaccines are victims of their own success.) However, the poll was worrying in one political respect: In 2009, there was no partisan difference in attitudes toward these requirements. The latest study did find some small differences along party lines. According to Brendan Nyhan, a Dartmouth political science professor who has done research on effective communication around vaccines, injecting partisan politics into individual decisions about whether to vaccinate could have unintended consequences. He argued in the New York Times recently that making the decision to vaccinate one of partisan allegiance could potentially push some individuals who might otherwise have vaccinated their children to forgo the process. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-centrism-in-american-politics-today/750410/57 "2016-04-03T16:41:15Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Bottom line: Creationism or ID has no place in public schools. I am not sure I fully agree with that. We should _teach_ religion in school: not the how but what it is and the why it exists, encompassing the broad range of religion. Based on that, you can teach Creationism/ID in public schools, as long as you frame it in the context of the scientific method contrasting its origin and development with that of actual bioscience. As in, “_ID is based on some guy breathed a lot of brimstone fumes an in his dizzy condition, made these ponderous pronouncements, which were frantically backfilled as they were overrun by later discovery_” vs “some folks looked at how things are and worked gradually backwards to figure out how things got to be this way, building a big model based on observation.” Young people, most of them, are not stupid. If you show them the entire picture of the “controversy”, a few of them will clutch their cherished beliefs tightly to their chests, but the ever important group that could come down on either side will reject ID in droves. Frankly, I think schools desperately need to require at least two full credits of _Bullshit!_ to graduate high school – that would greatly reduce the popularity of Chemtrails! and Illuminati! and Scientology. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-centrism-in-american-politics-today/750410/58 "2016-04-03T17:03:47Z")
Creationism is hardly the only model of pseudoscience in the world of biology. It’s not even a singular thing. There are a million different models of it; because it doesn’t correspond to any reality anybody can spout their delusions and claim them as truth. And it’s not just that Creationism cannot be usefully taught. Why single it out of all the other delusions? Why make teachers waste their time in learning enough of the ever-shifting details to be able to authoritatively teach it? Why waste students time when we can’t get through a fraction of what’s teachable as it is? > [@](#): > > f you show them the entire picture of the “controversy”, a few of them will clutch their cherished beliefs tightly to their chests, but the ever important group that could come down on either side will reject ID in droves. I’m pretty sure you aren’t American. No American could believe that. Students are currently being taught proper biology and rejecting it. How could that get better if you taught Creationism as well? Merely by presenting its argument you’d give it an imprimatur that would increase its status and believability. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-centrism-in-american-politics-today/750410/59 "2016-04-04T00:44:14Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Keep in mind most European conservatives have been far more hardcore austerians then Obama ever was and quite open about measures such as raising the retirement age. Most Republican politicians basically accept evolution and minimum wage while I might note that NHS is more comparable to Medicare in practical political terms in that it’s an already established ultra-popular program (and of course as others note, the Tory vultures are obsessed with cutting). I might further add that most Tory MPs voting against the measure legalizing gay marriage. Austerity has wide backing in Europe, which explains why fringe parties have had a new lease in life. I disagree about evolution. As for GWBush, his public statements matter a lot more than his personal beliefs expressed in an obscure interview. (Just as the personal beliefs of the public matter more than the personal beliefs of one politician or another.) Politically the NHS _is_ indeed comparable to Medicare: both are almost third rails. But that’s telling, since the NHS involves government owned hospitals (like those of the Veterans Administration): if something like that for the wider public isn’t far left in the US, I’m not sure what is. More generally, unions are much more politically powerful in all other major OECD countries. (By major, I mean to set Luxembourg et al aside. Goddamn it, I see that a bunch of middle income countries have joined the OECD in the past decade. Ok, let’s say, “Advanced or Upper Income countries”. Except France which has less union representation than the US but substantially higher top-down regulation of labor markets. FWIW, South Korea and the US are basically a tie in terms of unionization.) ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-centrism-in-american-politics-today/750410/60 "2016-04-04T01:49:30Z")
I’m intrigued to see that focusing in on America’s political “center” led to … evolution(!), with half of Republicans agreeing that “humans and other living things have existed in their present form since the beginning of time.” (Note that this view rejects astronomy and geology as well as biology.) I guess that makes GWB a typical “_centrist_:” [QUOTE=George W. Bush] I think evolution can — you’re getting me way out of my lane here. I’m just a simple president. But it’s, I think that God created the Earth, created the world; I think the creation of the world is so mysterious it requires something as large as an almighty, and I don’t think it’s incompatible with the scientific proof that there is evolution. [/QUOTE] Would European and Canadian Dopers feel insulted if I ask how widely supported creationism is in their venues? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-centrism-in-american-politics-today/750410.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-centrism-in-american-politics-today/750410.md?page=4)