# What is containing the universe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2002, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646 "2002-07-24T22:19:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Beastal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Beastal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastal)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/1 "2002-07-24T22:19:41Z")
Seeing as the universe is finite, something infinite must be containing it, no? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/2 "2002-07-24T23:01:08Z")
Your premise is wrong. What we call the Universe is congruent with space-time itself. There is nothing (literally, since there is no space, and no time) “outside” the Universe. ---
**Author:** ![AtomicDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@AtomicDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AtomicDog)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/3 "2002-07-24T23:01:40Z")
What happened before the big bang? What sound does the color mauve make? The question has no meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/4 "2002-07-24T23:10:21Z")
“The universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine.” – JBS Haldane ---
**Author:** ![Beastal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Beastal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastal)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/5 "2002-07-24T23:12:26Z")
The universe is finite, no? If we trace back the cause and effect sequences… we will hit something that is infinite, no? If something is finite, something has to ‘cause’ it, no? ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/6 "2002-07-24T23:19:14Z")
No. (but this should be in GD) ---
**Author:** ![Beastal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Beastal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastal)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/7 "2002-07-24T23:21:21Z")
Some Guy… Are you saying the First Cause is finite? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/8 "2002-07-24T23:27:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beastal \* > \*\*The universe is finite, no? > > If we trace back the cause and effect sequences… we will hit something that is infinite, no? If something is finite, something has to ‘cause’ it, no? \*\* No. If you go back far enough, you hit the Big Bang. Both space and time begin, for this Universe, at that time. _Time and space did not exist before the Big Bang._ A bit difficult to get your mind around, I know, hence the quote by Haldane. [I ignore the possibility that there may have been another Universe existing “before” the Big Bang. But space and time for the current Universe begin then, and there is no way to know what may have existed “before.”] ---
**Author:** ![Beastal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Beastal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastal)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/9 "2002-07-24T23:29:31Z")
I’m not talking time as in Space Time, I’m talking time as in cause and effect sequence. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/10 "2002-07-24T23:51:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beastal \* > \*\*I’m not talking time as in Space Time, I’m talking time as in cause and effect sequence. \*\* Beastal, you are missing the point here. Time is time. Cause and effect can only exist within time. Since time begins at the Big Bang, there is no point in asking what came before it, or what “caused” it. Asking what came before the Big Bang is like asking what’s south of the South Pole. ---
**Author:** ![Squish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Squish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squish)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/11 "2002-07-24T23:55:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beastal \* > \*\*I’m not talking time as in Space Time, I’m talking time as in cause and effect sequence. \*\* Are you asking what caused the Big Bang? There are some philosophies which contend that space and time are cyclical. The universe we live in which is expanding now will eventually begin to contract until enough pressure builds up to cause another Big Bang…and so on and so on and so on. Mods? This is interesting–would you move it to GD? ---
**Author:** ![Beastal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Beastal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastal)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2002, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/12 "2002-07-24T23:59:27Z")
Eh? So nothing caused the Big Bang? A totally finite entity came in to existence with no cause? ---
**Author:** ![Beastal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Beastal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastal)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/13 "2002-07-25T00:01:36Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Squish \* > \*\* > Are you asking what caused the Big Bang?_\* I’m asking more so what is containing the universe. I can’t see how something finite can’t be contained. ---
**Author:** ![Beastal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Beastal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastal)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/14 "2002-07-25T00:03:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beastal \* > \*\* > I can’t see how something finite can’t be contained. \*\* More accurately, I can’t see how something finite can exist without being contained by something else. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/15 "2002-07-25T00:04:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beastal \* > \*\*Eh? > > So nothing caused the Big Bang? A totally finite entity came in to existence with no cause? \*\* Yup. You’re getting it now. And it happens all the time, on a much smaller scale, in the present Universe, due to quantum fluctuations at the sub-atomic level. ---
**Author:** ![Beastal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Beastal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastal)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/16 "2002-07-25T00:07:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Colibri \* > \*\* > > And it happens all the time, on a much smaller scale, in the present Universe, due to quantum fluctuations… \*\* Heh, quantum fluctuations sound like a cause to me. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/17 "2002-07-25T00:13:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beastal \* > \*\*More accurately, I can’t see how something finite can exist without being contained by something else. \*\* As Haldane’s quote indicates, quantum physics and relativity tell us many things that are unimaginable on the basis of our everyday experience. Just because you personally can’t imagine it, doesn’t mean it isn’t so. It’s pretty difficult for most people to imagine the absence of space. Not empty space, but no three-dimensional space at all. But that’s what modern physics tells us is “outside” the three-dimensional universe - nothing at all, not even space. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/18 "2002-07-25T00:15:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beastal \* > \*\* > > Heh, quantum fluctuations sound like a cause to me. \*\* But nothing _causes_ them, they are simply an expression of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. Quantum fluctuations are an explanation, not a cause per se. ---
**Author:** ![Beastal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Beastal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastal)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/19 "2002-07-25T00:20:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Colibri \* > \*\* > > But nothing _causes_ them, they are simply an expression of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. Quantum fluctuations are an explanation, not a cause per se. \*\* Surely _something_ causes them. We can define that something as: _the difference between a quantum fluctuation occuring, and one not occuring._ ---
**Author:** ![Slugworth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4bbf92/32.png) [@Slugworth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slugworth)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/20 "2002-07-25T00:27:27Z")
By that logic then, the “cause” of the big bang was ‘the difference between the big bang occuring, and it not occuring’… Not a very useful definition of a cause, but if you really want one, there you go. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646.md?page=2)