# What is containing the universe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2002, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646 "2002-07-24T22:19:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Beastal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Beastal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastal)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/21 "2002-07-25T00:29:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Slugworth \* > \*\*By that logic then, the “cause” of the big bang was ‘the difference between the big bang occuring, and it not occuring’… Not a very useful definition of a cause, but if you really want one, there you go. \*\* So you are admitting, there is a cause to the Big Bang? ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/22 "2002-07-25T00:52:25Z")
Being a good positivist has it’s difficulties. You’re looking for “causation” in a context that cause and effect cannot be parsed out of. If all “reality” pre-bang is compressed to a more or less infinitely small point, the state of “being” is that **everything is everywhere and everytime, all at once**. This is clearly impossible and so there is no reality, no time and no space definable to this state of being. To look beyond the event horizon of pre-bang reality is impossible in a real sense, in that reality (of any sort) did not exist until the universe came into being and time began. As monkeys with car keys we have neither the intellectual tools or context to really grasp this state of un-reality as nothing was real before the universe started. The “Russian dolls” context of your OP cannot be answered if there was some point at which origin of the largest (or smalllest depending on your philosophical preference) doll was not “real” and this is unfortunately the case. ---
**Author:** ![Beastal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Beastal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastal)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/23 "2002-07-25T00:56:12Z")
😕 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ccd318/32.png) [@John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Kentzel-Griffin)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/24 "2002-07-25T01:41:26Z")
First, we’re not sure that the universe is finite. If the universe is closed, space and time are finite. That is, at any time the universe has a finite size and time will eventually end. If the universe is flat or open, its size is infinite and it will exist forever. I believe that the current thinking is that the universe is flat or possibly even open. Second, it is possible to study a space without reference to a containing space. It is possible that the universe is all there is. And I believe that this is the case. Now, it looks like you are arguing that there must be a First Cause outside the universe. I think that the Big Bang is the First Cause. Since it looks like this is not so much a General Question in search of a factual answer, but rather a Great Debate over First Cause, I’ll move this to Great Debates. Off to Great Debates. **DrMatrix** - General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/25 "2002-07-25T02:00:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beastal \* > \*\*Eh? > > So nothing caused the Big Bang? A totally finite entity came in to existence with no cause? \*\* Since there was no time at which the Big Bang had not happened, it’s not quite accurate to say that it “came into existence”. ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/26 "2002-07-25T02:09:24Z")
In my belief, the Universe doesn’t end. Sure, eventually you might come to a point where you will no longer encounter matter, but it would just be empty blackness. Forever and ever and ever. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ccd318/32.png) [@John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Kentzel-Griffin)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/27 "2002-07-25T04:09:40Z")
**Monster104** , There is no edge to matter. The Big Bang was not localized. It happened everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![heresiarch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@heresiarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heresiarch)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/28 "2002-07-25T04:34:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monster104 \* > \*\*In my belief, the Universe doesn’t end. Sure, eventually you might come to a point where you will no longer encounter matter, but it would just be empty blackness. Forever and ever and ever. \*\* I think you’d be in the minority among cosmologists. I believe that most feel that spacetime is curved - if you travel far enough in one direction, you return to your starting point, just like going around the world. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Beastal_ > \*\*Surely _something_ causes them. We can define that something as: > > the difference between a quantum fluctuation occuring, and one not occuring.\*\* That sounds to me like a description of the effect, not the cause. It doesn’t answer the question “Why?” It says that a quantum fluctuation occurred because it occurred. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/29 "2002-07-25T04:35:40Z")
Im not trying to say someone is wrong or anything cause honestly im no expert on the subject but the big bang theory stated that about 10 billion years agoall matter in the universe was contained in a primal atom -which the expounder of the big bang theory Georges Lemaitre(a Belgian astronomer) vividly described as a “cosmic egg” Tthis he said exploded and its many fragments became galaxies–one of which contains our solar system–all moving at incredible speed–and this theory would supposedly explain why the universe is expanding also there is the “Steady State” theory advanced by Hermann Bondi, Thomas Gold, and Fred Hoyle the “Pulsating Universe” theory and im, sure many more ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/30 "2002-07-25T04:36:27Z")
Im not trying to say someone is wrong or anything cause honestly im no expert on the subject but the big bang theory stated that about 10 billion years agoall matter in the universe was contained in a primal atom -which the expounder of the big bang theory Georges Lemaitre(a Belgian astronomer) vividly described as a “cosmic egg” This he said exploded and its many fragments became galaxies–one of which contains our solar system–all moving at incredible speed–and this theory would supposedly explain why the universe is expanding also there is the “Steady State” theory advanced by Hermann Bondi, Thomas Gold, and Fred Hoyle the “Pulsating Universe” theory and im, sure many more ---
**Author:** ![p\_cific\_812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@p\_cific\_812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/p_cific_812)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/31 "2002-07-25T04:58:03Z")
An interesting conversation, but you guys are overcomplicating matters. **Beastal** , the universe is contained in a small gem hanging from the collar of an irritable talking dog. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/32 "2002-07-25T06:23:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beastal \* > \*\*I’m not talking time as in Space Time, I’m talking time as in cause and effect sequence. \*\* Could you tie time and cause and effect into the universe being contained by something external to the universe? I _think_ you are confused and I _know_ that I am. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/33 "2002-07-25T06:24:42Z")
**p@cific@812** I think that the gem was in Orion’s belt and it (Orion) was a cat 🙂 But things are indeed getting more complicated: [http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/generalscience/5mysteries\_universes\_020205-1.html](http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/generalscience/5mysteries_universes_020205-1.html) > [@](#): > > Cosmologists say that a quantum fluctuation gave rise to the Big Bang. And the thing about quantum fluctuations is that they can happen anywhere, any time. And if our universe was born out of a quantum fluctuation, say theorists, then it’s possible that other quantum fluctuations could have spawned other universes. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/34 "2002-07-25T07:53:12Z")
It’s turtles all the way down. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/35 "2002-07-25T12:00:26Z")
Very interesting, GIGObuster. The real question now is whether or not we would even notice the spontaneous creation of another universe inside our own universe, AND if the existence of other universes separate from our own would necessitate that we conceive of some “vastness” beyond the stretches of the known cosmos… or would all those “pocket universes” - and the nothingness between them - simply encompass the entirety of the universe with a funny gap between them? Ultimately, it’s a philosophical issue… it all depends on how you want to define things. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/36 "2002-07-25T13:14:21Z")
So why can’t God be the first cause? ---
**Author:** ![Mandos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mandos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandos)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/37 "2002-07-25T13:33:28Z")
I fail to understand how an event can occur without some underlying cause. I have heard of the apparently causeless elements in quantum physics, but sometimes wonder if we understand the phenomena well enough to be certain that a cause does not exist that we can not yet understand. I don’t know…perhaps it is just beyond my feeble mind to comprehend the fact that thinking is not a requirement for spontaneity. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/38 "2002-07-25T13:40:54Z")
Beastal, just accept it: nature works in mysterious ways. Upon sufficient investigation and inquiry, you’ll find materialism to be just about the most mystical philosophy out there. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/39 "2002-07-25T13:46:16Z")
The Universe is contained by the Universe. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2002, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646/40 "2002-07-25T14:25:41Z")
**Lib** , you got that right. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-containing-the-universe/120646.md?page=3)