# What is Critical Race Theory? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 27, 2020, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-critical-race-theory/921629 "2020-09-27T00:59:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2020, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-critical-race-theory/921629/161 "2020-10-09T23:48:50Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > I won’t say this is the biggest pile of hogwash I have ever seen, but it is pure BS. > > For the full statement, see Some minority groups are bad at math…so it must be racist. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-critical-race-theory/921629/162 "2020-10-10T00:34:26Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > I had never heard of critical race theory until reading this thread (which I’ve not read more than a few posts of since it started to seem repetitive). But just two days I came on this manifesto signed by most if not all of the leaders of the Math. Assoc. of America. I should clarify that this is the organization devoted to math education, in contrast to the Amer. Math. Soc., whose primary interest is research. Anyway, the MAA released a statement on racism that included the following: > > “It is time for all members of our profession to acknowledge that mathematics is created by humans and therefore inherently carries human biases. Until this occurs, our community and our students cannot reach full potential.” > > I won’t say this is the biggest pile of hogwash I have ever seen, but it is pure BS. It’s worse than mere B.S. Instead of critically and candidly acknowledging that the academy and, yes, in particular the mathematics community suffers from problems with sexism and racism (not to mention politics) like everybody else and needs to confront them, which would be laudable, someone had the disgusting effrontery to suggest mathematics “carries human biases” just like the Nazis determined to support “Aryan mathematics” instead of that degenerate “Franco-Jewish” stuff. At least, that is the natural association to be made from statements phrased like that. One can substitute any academic field, it’s not even a coherent statement about mathematics. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-critical-race-theory/921629/163 "2020-10-10T01:18:57Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > So once again, my primary criticism is how crt discards logical arguments and empirical data for anecdote (lived experiences) and parables (narratives). CRT doesn’t do this. I find your uncited and unsupported opinions unconvincing. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-critical-race-theory/921629/164 "2020-10-10T04:02:48Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > So again - when CRT activists lobby to destroy merit-based admission to elite high schools in New York and Virginia, often by using rhetoric against Asians that is indistinguishable from white supremacist language So, what is your un-sourced cite of that then again? No I’m not referring to the efforts you think are so clear, I want to see what CRT proponents do say. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-critical-race-theory/921629/165 "2020-10-10T04:04:56Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > Then why do they need affirmative action at the expense of asians? Since CRT has contributed to splinter groups focused on Asian American, Latino, and Indian racial experiences. I think you are not misremembering, it is just your ignorance once again. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-critical-race-theory/921629/166 "2020-10-10T04:22:12Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > From your wiki article: > " What is most arresting about critical race theory is that…it turns its back on the Western tradition of rational inquiry, forswearing analysis for narrative. Rather than marshal logical arguments and empirical data, critical race theorists tell stories – fictional, science-fictional, quasi-fictional, autobiographical, anecdotal – designed to expose the pervasive and debilitating racism of America today. By repudiating reasoned argumentation, the storytellers reinforce stereotypes about the [intellectual capacities of nonwhites](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence)." -Judge Posner > > So once again, my primary criticism is how crt discards logical arguments and empirical data for anecdote (lived experiences) and parables (narratives). It is not like the crt in the legal context, trying to add a perspective. It is a central philosophy that has foundation or underpinnings other than faith. In that way you are entitled to your religion but when your religion creates discrimination that did not exist before, then your religion should be cast aside in rational debate just as christianity is in debates regarding gay marriage or birth control. Your faith is not greater than reason. Not sure I would depend on someone that thinks that differences in IQ comes from race. > **[About that Harvard Law](http://archive.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/brainiac/2010/04/about_that_harv.html)** > > An "email on race" is the Globe's professionally nonjudgmental description of a private email sent out by the third-year Harvard Law student Stephanie Grace, in which Grace defended the thesis that African Americans are, on balance, "less intelligent... We had many discussions before in the SDMB to realize that that pointing at IQ as coming from biology is a position based more on faith indeed. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-critical-race-theory/921629/167 "2020-10-10T04:31:10Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > At least, that is the natural association to be made from statements phrased like that. One can substitute any academic field, it’s not even a coherent statement about mathematics. While I reported that I agree that that [nutpick](https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/nutpicking) was nonsense, I however still has not seen some cite that the CRT proponents agree with that. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-critical-race-theory/921629/168 "2020-10-10T04:46:49Z")
I don’t think anything would convince you. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-critical-race-theory/921629/169 "2020-10-10T04:48:40Z")
Can you point out where it says that white hispanics make more than asians? I don’t think you have any idea what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-critical-race-theory/921629/170 "2020-10-10T04:51:55Z")
You have no idea who the duck he is do you? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-critical-race-theory/921629/171 "2020-10-10T05:11:37Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > I don’t think anything would convince you. You are less convincing when the critic you pointed out is a follower of racists like Charles Murray. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-critical-race-theory/921629/172 "2020-10-10T05:13:32Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > You have no idea who the duck he is do you? Yes I do, it is clear that the very point of CRT does elude you when you willfully ignore that there are respected people out there that do follow racist claptrap. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-critical-race-theory/921629/173 "2020-10-10T05:28:35Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > Can you point out where it says that white hispanics make more than asians? I don’t think you have any idea what you’re talking about. Clearly you are trying here to ignore what I said there, again, CRT has helped groups focused on Asian Americans too, it is not only for Blacks or Hispanics. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-critical-race-theory/921629/174 "2020-10-10T10:35:04Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > While I reported that I agree that that [nutpick](https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/nutpicking) was nonsense, I however still has not seen some cite that the CRT proponents agree with that. No doubt you have it pegged. And a genuine critique of the influence of racism on the metaphysics of mathematics and other disciplines, and on the directions and principles they follow, would be interesting and potentially important. But the nutty sentence (in a statement signed by an impressive-sounding list of Presidents, Chairmen, and Directors of the MAA!) is Not Even Wrong, and we should not be surprised that serious proponents and scholars do not agree with it, to the extent there is anything to agree or disagree with. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-critical-race-theory/921629/175 "2020-10-10T14:23:48Z")
I will have to say that then what you say in the last sentence is problematic in the sense that the ones that concentrate on a line like that are falling into a fallacy, it is a version of the Nirvana fallacy, applied as: demanding perfection and tossing away the good. Coupled also with: is the maker of the nutty line related to the serious scholars proposing CRT? I think another thing to consider here is that, for example, James Watson (of DNA fame) was stripped of many of the honors he got because of his indefensible racism, but it does not remove the good things he did nor it would be good to then dismiss in total the institutions he belonged to. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2020, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-critical-race-theory/921629/176 "2020-10-10T14:43:31Z")
I do not think the MAA or their efforts that turn out to be sincere should be dismissed. I am even willing to believe the “nutty” line is merely the result of unfortunate phrasing that slipped through the editing, and that I was reading way too much into it by taking it out of context like that. If someone pointed to just that line as evidence that the entire MAA is a bunch of dismissible idiots and, since the statement mentions CRT, that CRT must be idiotic and anti-science to boot, that would be quite dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2020, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-critical-race-theory/921629/177 "2020-10-11T19:04:57Z")
[quote=“GIGObuster, post:164, topic:921629”] So, what is your un-sourced cite of that then again? [/quote] I don’t know what the fuck an “un-sourced cite” is but you know very well from the thread that spawned this one that NYC and Fairfax County VA are launching a woke war on Asian educational excellence in the name of racial quotas. > **[PTA clashes with education secretary on admissions changes](https://apnews.com/article/science-religion-education-race-and-ethnicity-4ffeff749724f5d3cf2a776969d63a41)** > > FALLS CHURCH, Va. (AP) — A battle between parents at an elite northern Virginia high school and education officials who want to dramatically overhaul the school's admissions process to make it more inclusive is growing more intense, with a clash... > **[Richard Carranza lobbies Albany to scrap entrance exam for top high schools](https://nypost.com/2019/06/12/richard-carranza-lobbies-albany-to-scrap-entrance-exam-for-top-high-schools/)** > > New York City School Chancellor Richard Carranza trekked to Albany Wednesday in an end-of-session push for a state law to eliminate the single entrance exam for admission into the city’s spec… > **[Parents Challenge Loudoun Academies Admission Policy Changes with Lawsuit](https://www.loudounnow.com/news/education/parents-challenge-loudoun-academies-admission-policy-changes-with-lawsuit/article_6435bb90-b1b2-5087-b11e-375a5e2c3532.html)** > > Thirty-seven Loudoun County parents have filed a lawsuit asking a Circuit Court judge to determine whether recently adopted changes to the Academy of Science and the Academy of Engineering and A white teacher - a TEACHER! - railing against Asians who “come here however they come here” and have the gall to encourage their children to do well at school - I guess it disturbs her ideal job where she gets $80K to propagate a culture of failure and the union makes her unfirable. The language used about immigrants in general and Asians in particular here is straight-up racist. Under “critical race theory,” which purports to have discovered racism, not a peep is said because disparaging Asians is a key part of the program. [https://twitter.com/coalitionforTJ/status/1313762324805750784](https://twitter.com/coalitionforTJ/status/1313762324805750784) > [@GIGObuster](#): > > No I’m not referring to the efforts you think are so clear, I want to see what CRT proponents do say. You don’t want to acknowledge what is actually being DONE, in reality, you want to hide behind what a notoriously ideological, anti-reality movement CLAIMS to want. OK. And China isn’t committing a genocide right now because they say they’re dedicated to equality. Case closed. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2020, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-critical-race-theory/921629/178 "2020-10-11T19:34:53Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > You don’t want to acknowledge what is actually being DONE, in reality, you want to hide behind what a notoriously ideological, anti-reality movement CLAIMS to want. OK. And China isn’t committing a genocide right now because they say they’re dedicated to equality. Case closed. Again, I asked for what the scholars working with CRT are thinking about the incident you are talking about, none of your cites point to what CRT scholars are making of that item, the closest I have have seen so far is that there are complains about some books that were made by writers that are involved in CRT that are being proposed to the used in the schools, again you are just condemning the whole of CRT just by association. And your closing case is just pathetic. And why? Because you did not bother to check what the scholars that use CRT do report about the Uyghurs. FIRE: Forum for International Research in Education Vol. 5, Iss. 1, 2019, pp. 22-43 CONTROLLING RELIGIOUS KNOWLEDGE AND EDUCATION FOR COUNTERING RELIGIOUS EXTREMISM: CASE STUDY OF THE UYGHUR MUSLIMS IN CHINA Dilmurat Mahmut > **[EJ1207558.pdf](https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1207558.pdf)** > > 349.21 KB > **Significance and Conclusion** > Access to religious knowledge and education has always been strictly controlled in the history of the People’s Republic of China. This has been particularly evident in the case of the Uyghurs who have been subject to waves of differing political rhetoric and increasingly tight policy measurements around Islamic knowledge and education. Most recently, the supposed link between Islamic knowledge or religiosity and violent extremism or terrorism reinforced by the global “war on terror” discourse has resulted in an unprecedented degree of repressions over the basic Uyghur human rights, since the end of the Great Cultural Revolution ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2020, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-critical-race-theory/921629/179 "2020-10-11T22:07:15Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Clearly you are trying here to ignore what I said there, again, CRT has helped groups focused on Asian Americans too, it is not only for Blacks or Hispanics. WTF? You specifically said that white hispanics make more than asians. I don’t see where in your article it says that. Crt does nothing for asians. crt did not invent the criticisms of model minority sterotypes. crt did not discover that racism against asians existed. All crt seems to do is promote anecdote over data and parable over logical reasoning. And while these things are useful in explaining the black/white disparity, it is utterly useless in explaining other disparities like the vietnamese/mexican disparity. CRT clearly focused on the black/white dynamic. “CRT focuses on the Black–White paradigm” > **[Critical race theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory)** > > Critical race theory (CRT) is an interdisciplinary academic field focused on the relationships between social conceptions of race and ethnicity, social and political laws, and media. CRT also considers racism to be systemic in various laws and rules, and not only based on individuals' prejudices. The word critical in the name is an academic reference to critical thinking, critical theory, and scholarly criticism, rather than criticizing or blaming individuals. > CRT is also used in sociology t... > [@GIGObuster](#): > > You are less convincing when the critic you pointed out is a follower of racists like Charles Murray. Regardless of what you think of posner’s racism, how does that make his criticism any less valid? BTW, I feel I must defend posner here, his position on race and IQ are pretty clear: “His view in this regard is undergirded by his view that different races differ in intelligence. (However, Posner says that he thinks it is “highly unlikely” that these differences are rooted in genetics, rather than environment.)” > **[Richard Posner | Race and public education](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Posner#Race_and_public_education)** > > Posner's views of public education policy are informed by his view that groups of students differ in intellectual ability, and therefore, that it is faulty to impose uniform educational standards on all schools. His view in this regard is undergirded by his view that different races differ in intelligence. (However, Posner says that he thinks it is "highly unlikely" that these differences are rooted in genetics, rather than environment.)\[citation needed\] > In a blog post, Posner wrote, "I suggest ... This race to tar anyone you disagree with as a racist is condemning one of the most influential proponents of abortion (including late term abortion), decriminalization of drugs, gay rights, and my personal favorite the abolition of bluebooking. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2020, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-critical-race-theory/921629/180 "2020-10-11T22:45:34Z")
> [@damuriajashi](#): > > Crt does nothing for asians. More ignorance from you then. > **[Critical Race Theory, Asian Americans, and Higher Education: A Review of...](https://escholarship.org/uc/item/98h4n45j)** > > Author(s): Liu, Amy | Abstract: In this review, the author incorporates her own personal narrative into the discussion as a way of enriching and contextualizing the intersection of critical race theory, Asian Americans, and higher education. From the... > In this review, the author incorporates her own personal narrative into the discussion as a way of enriching and contextualizing the intersection of critical race theory, Asian Americans, and higher education. From the issues explored in this paper, two key themes emerged: 1) Asian Americans should not be considered as one monolithic group, but rather their educational experiences and outcomes should be disaggregated and 2) issues of race and racism, particularly as it challenges the model minority stereotype, should be addressed openly. > Conclusion > CRT and AsianCrit empower researchers to critically engage in a discussion about racial issues. Doing so is an imperative for working toward eliminating racism and proceeding in the direction of social justice. From the issues explored in this paper, two key themes emerged: 1) Asian Americans should not be considered as one monolithic group, but rather their educational experiences and outcomes should be disaggregated and 2) issues of race and racism, particularly as it challenges the model minority stereotype, should be addressed openly. Disaggregating the data is important for achieving more thoughtful understanding of the issues facing Asian Americans, but at the same time the danger this renders is the loss of a collective political voice. Indeed, individual ethnic subgroups may not have the political power necessary to combat racism and inequality. Nevertheless, recognizing that Asian Americans are not one uniform model minority is essential for better understanding this population. > [@damuriajashi](#): > > This race to tar anyone you disagree with as a racist is condemning one of the most influential proponents of abortion (including late term abortion), decriminalization of drugs, gay rights, and my personal favorite the abolition of bluebooking. Missing the point here too, a racist that agrees with me (in all those items) is still a racist. From Public Values in Constitutional Law, by Stephen E. Gottlieb > **[Public Values in Constitutional Law](https://press.umich.edu/Books/P/Public-Values-in-Constitutional-Law)** > > The United States Supreme Court contends that it must weigh constitutional claims against critical government interests - considerations of public policy so compelling that constitutional rights may be ... > The "Nothing Works” Problem > > Judge Posner\* has told us for good measure that government policies and programs for the poor are for the most part not helpful. And has announced flatly that AFDC subsidizes out - of - wedlock children. > > These statements are of concern on three levels . One , they are mostly incorrect , which would not be especially terrible if Judge Posner were still Professor Possner. But two, they reveal\* carelessness on the part of a sitting federal Judge. And , three , since the\* same unquestioning adoption of right wing shibboleths is characteristic of reigning conservative ideology , they represent the myth - laden politics of the conservative judiciary generally. > This is not just a case of differing values and competing stories to explain and interpret the same set of facts . Judge Posner has bought into a line , espoused especially by _Charles Murray_ that has been repeatedly and effectively discredited. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-critical-race-theory/921629.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-critical-race-theory/921629.md?page=10)