# What is december still doing here? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 7, 2003, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519 "2003-08-07T04:13:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Publius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@Publius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Publius)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/181 "2003-08-12T03:28:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\* That doesn’t prove that the books caused the bombing, of course. \*\* Biggest. Understatement. Ever. Somehow I have a hard time believing that most radical Islamists have even read Michael Moore, much less seized upon his works as a justification for mass murder. “Hey, what do we need Sayyid Qutb for? This squawking, overweight kaffir is much more inspiring!” ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/182 "2003-08-12T04:33:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*A lot of people seem to believe that it’s censorship to even allude to the harm that a public statement might cause. I don’t agree with that POV. Lots public statements are perfectly legal, but harmful to a greater or lesser degree. E.g., bigoted statements by political leaders might be legal, but they would damage the country. E.g., unreasonably pessimistic economic projections are certainly legal, but the projections themselves could discourage economic expansion and thus harm the economy. Statements that could harm the country oughtn’t to be made casually. > > I think statements indicating foreign policy disunity tend to harm the country. Giving this Hamas leader an excuse to encourage terrorism is just one example of how this sort of statement can harm the country. You have quoted some other examples. There’s nothing new about what I’m saying. Historically this principle was recognized in the slogan, “Foreign policy ends at the water’s edge.” > > That doesn’t mean it’s automatically wrong to criticize the country’s foreign policy. But, IMHO it does mean that critics should be aware of the cost. They should only make the criticism if the benefit to the country exceeds the cost to the country. \*\* Well, I’m still waiting for your apology that you either: a) encouraged the murder of American servicemen and women in Vietnam or, b) encouraged the murder of American servicemen and women because you thought the benefit outweighed the cost in Vietnam, **JaneFond… err… december**. Until then, you are arguing from the position of extreme hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/183 "2003-08-12T04:37:02Z")
Why is it, **december** , that you only seem to attack Dems, and not the Repubs, when they criticize foreign policy? > [@](#): > > “Because of some combination of bureaucratic inertia, political caution and unrealistic expectations left over from the war, we do not appear to be confident about our course in Iraq,” said Committee Chairman Richard Lugar, an Indiana Republican. > [@](#): > > “We just haven’t seen any proof of linkages between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda,” said Sen. Lincoln Chafee, a Rhode Island Republican. > [@](#): > > “The war was a lot better planned than the peace,” said Sen. Lamar Alexander, R-Tenn. Another Republican, Sen. George Voinovich of Ohio, praised aspects of the U.S. performance in Iraq but urged the administration to be “more forthright” about the costs. > [@](#): > > The Republican chairwoman of a Senate committee denounced the Treasury Department’s refusal to reveal how often the Bush administration rejected recommendations to penalize Saudi organizations suspected of financing terrorists. > > The information sought by Sen. Susan Collins of Maine, chairwoman of the Governmental Affairs Committee, could reveal whether the administration was more reluctant to designate Saudi organizations as supporting terrorism than organizations from other countries. Let’s face it, this was simply a terrible slur on some of the Democratic Presidential candidates. There was no debate; this is not about some (I daresay) high-minded ideal; this is _only_ about taking potshots at the Democratic party. The fact that many considered your attacks to be on all “war opponents” has more to do with your past posting (as shown above) than your current silly diatribe. Though, of course, they are all tied together into one neat, consistent _decemberverse_ (as one poster put it). I have a feeling that you are much more concerned with [this trend](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/usatoday/20030722/pl_usatoday/5342021) than with American casulaties in Iraq. > [@](#): > > A USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll taken Friday through Sunday shows an improving political climate for Democrats on foreign policy and security. In the survey, 46% said Republicans in Congress would do a better job handling foreign affairs, and 41% chose Democrats. In January, the GOP advantage was 51%-34%. Democrats also narrowed the gap on handling Iraq, from a 24-percentage point deficit in January (53%-29%) to 15 points now (51%-36%). > > ‘‘One of the big questions about the Democrats is whether people will feel safe and secure with a Democrat running foreign policy and the war on terrorism and security generally,’’ says independent pollster Andrew Kohut, director of the Pew Research Center. ‘‘These kinds of indicators suggest things may be moving in the Democrats’ direction, although they have a ways to go.’’ ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/184 "2003-08-12T17:35:31Z")
By **december’s** logic, we should blame the Oklahoma City Federal Building bombing on Rush Limbaugh, G. Gordon Libby, and all the other conservative pundits tossing out anti-government screeds at the time. Or am I the only one who remembers Libby’s “aim for the head” bullshit? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/185 "2003-08-12T18:12:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*By **december’s** logic, we should blame the Oklahoma City Federal Building bombing on Rush Limbaugh, G. Gordon Libby, and all the other conservative pundits tossing out anti-government screeds at the time. \*\* Some did. I remember it real time. Here’s a description: > [@](#): > > After the bombing, the appropriate action would have been for President Clinton to unite the country as one in grieving over a disastrous tragedy. But he chose to do exactly the opposite. Within less 48 hours, the President began a campaign to blame everyone on the right for the “atmosphere of hate” that had caused the tragedy. The left-wing media joined in the feeding frenzy. No one was exempt: pro-lifers, pro-family organizations, home schoolers, the religious right (portrayed as whackos) and especially “hate radio.” [http://www.steelonsteel.com/articles/okcboming.html](http://www.steelonsteel.com/articles/okcboming.html) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/186 "2003-08-12T18:30:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Some did. I remember it real time. Here’s a description: [http://www.steelonsteel.com/articles/okcboming.html](http://www.steelonsteel.com/articles/okcboming.html) \*\* **December** , you’re so full of shit. That’s not a cite. Give me some quotes from Clinton and you’ll have the beginnings of a case. The Justhinkian rantings of some random Web site, skirling from condemnation of Flower Power to Ruby Ridge, is just more putrid nonsense from you. But at least this post doesn’t suggest I aided in murdering US troops, so maybe I should be thankful for the rise in your level of discourse. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/187 "2003-08-12T18:36:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Here’s an example of legal writings that may have done some harm. The lawyer for a terrorist on trial in connection with the Bali bombing that killed 202 people “quoted from American satirist Michael Moore’s book Stupid White Men and other anti-western texts.” That doesn’t prove that the books caused the bombing, of course. Still, it’s something to think about. Are you trying to imply that _you think_ about things? And your blog spotting prompts said thinking? Most amusing. I vote against banning as it would be a crime against comedy. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/188 "2003-08-12T18:51:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Here’s an example of legal writings that may have done some harm. The lawyer for a terrorist on trial in connection with the Bali bombing that killed 202 people [“quoted from American satirist Michael Moore’s book Stupid White Men and other anti-western texts.”](http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/08/11/1060588323997.html) That doesn’t prove that the books caused the bombing, of course. Still, it’s something to think about. Apparently this lawyer believes that Moore’s book and other anti-western texts provide some degree of justification for anti-western terrorism. \*\* What exactly IS it for you to think about? An insane nutcase takes Moore’s anti-violence book and uses it to justify violence, and you’ve got something to think about? Listen, can’t you just listen to the voices in your own head? Why come you gotta listen to the voices in Samudra’s head and give them credence? The more you take your political analysis from terrorists, the more respect I got for you. Listen, I’ve got something else for you to get angry about: > [@](#): > > I am the master of my fate: > I am the captain of my soul. These words apparently inspired Timothy McVeigh: they were his last words on this earth, after all. How do we get William Ernest Henley, their author, to apologize to the Oklahoma City Bombing victims? So amazingly full of shit. ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/189 "2003-08-12T18:52:58Z")
With all the ducking of the issues by a certain poster, you would think we are in a migratory bird nesting grounds. Well, expecting certain people to have the intellectual honesty to address the hard questions presented to them is a waste of held breath. The upside is an easy classification of certain posts as the unthinking ultra-right glurge of an intellectual coward. Sadly, some people hold onto their ignorance like a warm blanket on a cold night. Plus we are getting tons of unintentional humor. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/190 "2003-08-12T19:08:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Here’s an example of legal writings that may have done some harm. The lawyer for a terrorist on trial in connection with the Bali bombing that killed 202 people [“quoted from American satirist Michael Moore’s book Stupid White Men and other anti-western texts.”](http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/08/11/1060588323997.html) That doesn’t prove that the books caused the bombing, of course. Still, it’s something to think about. Apparently this lawyer believes that Moore’s book and other anti-western texts provide some degree of justification for anti-western terrorism. \*\* and Charles Manson apparently thought the Beatles were predicting a race riot w/_Healter Skelter_, and Son of Sam thought his neighbors dog was telling him to kill. so, Beatles fans should appologize to Manson victims and dog owners everywhere should appologize to the citizens of New York? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/191 "2003-08-12T21:08:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > The lawyer for a terrorist on trial in connection with the Bali bombing that killed 202 people “quoted from American satirist Michael Moore’s book Stupid White Men and other anti-western texts.” That doesn’t prove that the books caused the bombing, of course. Still, it’s something to think about. Sure, it’s something to think about . . . if you’re a complete moron and happen to have taken 5 tabs of LSD. Other than that, it’s just something some dumbass nutcase in a shithole third world country happened to spout off about. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/192 "2003-08-12T21:26:20Z")
Apart from the politics (using the term loosely), does anyone else think there are serious attention issues here ? He plainly loves these Pit threads even more than those leaking sacks of shit he leaves around GD; he just can’t leave ‘em alone . . . and when they look like fading, back in he comes again to stoke the embers. Or so it sometimes seems . . . I mean, some of these lines he’s spouting towards the back end here are too obtuse for someone with plainly more intelligence . . . ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/193 "2003-08-12T21:34:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > **he just can’t leave ‘em alone . . . and when they look like fading, back in he comes again to stoke the embers.** Sometimes he does leave them alone but only if he’s getting his ass kicked. ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2003, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/194 "2003-08-12T21:43:22Z")
**on Fighting Ignorance** Just want to point out that I actually learned something in this mess of a thread. I hadn’t known that Timothy McVeigh quoted **Invictus**. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/195 "2003-08-13T12:31:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\* The fact is, the SDMB population these days is WAY over on the left. In a country where 60% of the people approve of George Bush, there’s maybe 1 poster in 20 on this board who do. It’s largely made up of people that hate Bush with a passion. \*. \*\* I’ve noticed this as well. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/196 "2003-08-13T12:38:24Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Sam Stone_ > \*\*The fact is, the SDMB population these days is WAY over on the left. In a country where 60% of the people approve of George Bush, there’s maybe 1 poster in 20 on this board who do. It’s largely made up of people that hate Bush with a passion. \*\* Funny, I’ve noticed that the SDMB population is WAY over on the right. Granted, there seems to be a lot of anti-Republican sentiment, but that doesn’t make it left-wing (not from where I am, anyway). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/197 "2003-08-13T13:08:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stuffy \* > \*\ ***on Fighting Ignorance** > > Just want to point out that I actually learned something in this mess of a thread. I hadn’t known that Timothy McVeigh quoted **Invictus**. \*\* Glad to help! It was pretty creepy, an ugly end to the life of an ugly man. But – and this is the important point, of course – a psychopath’s love of the poem **Invictus** does not taint the poem. We should not look at the poem and say, “Oh! That poem inspires mass murder and is therefore suspect!” We’d have to be complete dumbshits to give such an idea the slightest consideration. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/198 "2003-08-13T14:34:27Z")
I’ll have to dig this one up, but someone started a sort of poll not too long ago to figure out the political makeup of the SDMB. I summarized the results, and IIRC, there were approx an equal number of lefties and libertarians\*, and a few less who were righties. This was a highly unscientific poll, but it was interesting nonetheless. \*libertarian had to be defined kind of loosely, and was not meant to mean members of the Lib party, but roughly along lines of being strongly free market oriented but also strongly personal freedom oriented. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/200 "2003-08-30T16:41:09Z")
Kind of dead issue, now **what** (can I call you **what?** ). ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/201 "2003-08-30T21:12:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*what _are_ you, then? \*\* It’s not my place to state what **Lib** ’s politics are, but: About 2% of North Carolinians vote the Libertarian party ticket – it’s the only third party guaranteed a ballot space in this state. Now refer to his user name and his numerous posts in support of a libertarian politicosocial model. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519.md?page=11)