# What is december still doing here? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 7, 2003, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519 "2003-08-07T04:13:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/21 "2003-08-07T06:11:33Z")
**december** , as with the rest of us, is not banned yet because, quite simply, he has not been banned yet. Occam’s Safety Razor at work (now with 33% less carnage!). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/22 "2003-08-07T06:13:25Z")
I’m wondering how many of the “Ban December” brigade would also call for the banning of **Reeder**. I wouldn’t call for either to be banned, but I’d have to put Reeder much higher on the list than December. Both are serial-thread-starters, but at least December does more than post a link and say “Bush is Evil”. Why don’t you guys just stay out of his threads? I’m amazed at how many posts December gets in some of his threads. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/23 "2003-08-07T06:30:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by autz \* > **december** doesn’t break the ‘don’t be a jerk’ rule. I think that [latest thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3807515) of his certainly qualifies. > [@](#): > > _Origianlly posted by John Mace_ > I’m wondering how many of the “Ban December” brigade would also call for the banning of Reeder. Where do I sign? > [@](#): > > Why don’t you guys just stay out of his threads? Two words: morbid curiousity. “Oh, another **december** train wreck – wonder what lunatic deranged propaganda he dredged up _this_ time?” ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/24 "2003-08-07T06:44:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > Why don’t you guys just stay out of his threads? I’m amazed at how many posts December gets in some of his threads. Same reason Phaedrus, JDT, WB, Serlin and bj0rn got so many views/replies: “I wonder what this idjit is going to say next.” And then the burning desire to correct stuff, even though most of us know by now that anything **december** sticks between his ears stays there as if it were composed entirely of Krazy Glue. It’s pointless, but you just gotta try. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/25 "2003-08-07T06:50:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by autz \* > \*\ ***december** doesn’t break the ‘don’t be a jerk’ rule. > > You may disagree with him, but that doesn’t make him a jerk. > \*\* I agree. He’s polite. Psychotic, deranged, but polite. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/26 "2003-08-07T06:59:22Z")
Wouldn’t a SDMB without December be like M_A_S\*H without Frank Burns, or The Mary Tyler Moore Show without Ted Baxter, or Cheers without Cliff Claven? You get the idea… ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/27 "2003-08-07T07:32:49Z")
A Family Matters without Urkel, even… ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/28 "2003-08-07T07:38:17Z")
Ah, a **december** Pit thread. Yep. It’s Thursday. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/29 "2003-08-07T07:56:59Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by blowero \* > Wouldn’t a SDMB without December be like M_A_S_H without Frank Burns… [Burns was on the show for 5 years](http://us.imdb.com/Title?0068098). I guess that means **december** will be leaving us around March of next year. FWIW, I actually preferred Winchester to Burns. Burns was easier to mock, yes, but Winchester put up much more of a fight, had a less one-dimensional character, etc. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/30 "2003-08-07T08:22:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by iampunha \* > \*\*[Burns was on the show for 5 years](http://us.imdb.com/Title?0068098). I guess that means **december** will be leaving us around March of next year. > > FWIW, I actually preferred Winchester to Burns. Burns was easier to mock, yes, but Winchester put up much more of a fight, had a less one-dimensional character, etc. \*\* Ooohhh, a M_A_S\*H highjack. I think what’s-his-name (Stiers?) who played Winchester is a talented actor, but the show sucked donkey balls after Frank left; not necessarily because of Winchester, but because of a general decline in writing, lack of funny ideas, and too much political correctness. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/31 "2003-08-07T08:24:22Z")
The day December gets banned simply for posting political material that you guys don’t agree with or that you think is stupid or inflammatory is the day I take a walk out of here as well, for that truly would be censorship of ideas. I read the same sites December does. I recognize most of his arguments. They are views shared by a widespread spectrum of Americans, whether you like it or not. You can find Decembers opinions over at National Review Online, or on Instapundit, or FreeRepublic, or any number of other widely read conservative web sites. You may think they are all nuts, but they are well within the range of acceptable political debate. The fact is, the SDMB population these days is WAY over on the left. In a country where 60% of the people approve of George Bush, there’s maybe 1 poster in 20 on this board who do. It’s largely made up of people that hate Bush with a passion. You guys spout conspiracy theories and leftist agitprop all the time, and you see it as ‘rational’. December posts equivalent material from a right-of-center standpoint, and you guys think it’s a banning offense, or at least something worthy of the gross amounts of personal abuse you heap on the man. If December were posting over at FreeRepublic, his posts would be received by choruses of “Right on!”. They are valid viewpoints that are at least worthy of debate. If anything, the mods should be getting on some of the serial **December** abusers around here. The man can’t post the time of day without receiving a cacaphony of insults and pittings. I don’t agree with a lot of what December posts. But then, the stuff I see posted on the left side of the spectrum (and by posters a lot more respected than **Reeder** - **elucidator** for example) are, from my perspective, crazier than most of the stuff December says. And often far more offensive. And unlike many of you, December stays unfailingly polite, even in the face of obnoxious insults. Calls for banning of December are way, way out of line. If you don’t like his arguments, debate them. If they frustrate you because he posts numerous cites and forces you to do the same to refute them, then _tough shit_. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/32 "2003-08-07T09:36:58Z")
I think you’re missing the point, **Sam**. It’s not the fact that **december** is extremely right-of-center; it’s that his debating “style” is so obnoxious, spurious, vile, insulting, devious, backhanded, etc.etc… There are many right-wing/conservative posters here, and none receives the bashing **december** does week in and week out. Why is that? Here’s a thought – if someone were to post on those conservative forums _left-of-center_, and in the same manner as **december** , how long would they last there? But if you **truly** believe that **december** ’s last OP was appropriate for these boards, then why don’t you head over there and defend it? ---
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/33 "2003-08-07T09:42:25Z")
I disagree with much of what **december** posts, but from what I’ve seen of his posts, I agree with **Sam Stone** that what **december** says is well within the range of acceptable political debate. I suppose one might suspect **december** of deliberately stirring the waters, so to speak. But based on what I’ve seen, it seems more likely that he simply feels passionately about these subjects and is sharing his views. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/34 "2003-08-07T09:55:13Z")
I disagreed with the frequent calls for Coll’s banning. For the same reasons, I disagree with the calls for December’s banning. Some people will post things that offend you. It happens, and it’s not pleasant, but it’s an integral part of a board that’s supposed to provoke debate and thought. The division between “challenging hypothesis” and “offensive trolling” is often a rather blurry one. Why don’t we leave the mods to decide where the line is drawn? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/35 "2003-08-07T09:56:18Z")
Leander > [@](#): > > I think you’re missing the point, Sam. It’s not the fact that december is extremely right-of-center; it’s that his debating “style” is so obnoxious, spurious, vile, insulting, devious, backhanded, etc.etc… Few debators do NOT say that about their opponents. December is one who does not. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/36 "2003-08-07T10:09:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Few debators do NOT say that about their opponents. December is one who does not. \*\* Hardly. I’d say there were few debaters here who act in that manner. And even fewer who do so and manage to remain. **december** is certainly one. I’m actually quite surprised that you think that most people have this opinion. What an unpleasant view of debating you must have. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/37 "2003-08-07T10:09:50Z")
Actually Lib, I argue with you all the time and don’t find your style obnoxious. I can name a load of people on this board who manage to argue a point I disagree with strongly who do so without being obnoxious. But December really can be a vile and insulting poster, despite his noted avoidance of swearing or namecalling. He merely insinuates that your nation is racist, or that you support terrorism, or any of a number of smears. He’s insulting in a politician’s manner - no name calling, just insuation and smear tactics. I think that’s why he raises so many hackles. I can agree to an extent - I’d much rather someone called me a fucking idiot than insinuated I was bigotted, a terrorist apologist, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Shaolinrabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Shaolinrabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shaolinrabbit)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/38 "2003-08-07T10:21:20Z")
While I can see how **December** can be infuriating, it has always seemed to me that the responses to his posts are worse than his posts are. He seems to be a person with strong opinions, and those opinions offend a lot of people, but I’ve seen jerkier posters, more obnoxious posters and certainly less friendly posters out there. I think the mods moved **December’s** last thread because the replies to it would never fit in GD, not the OP, which, while inflammatory, wasn’t _inappropriate_. Just my opinion, of course. I think if you banned **December** , a precedent could be set for banning a lot of others as well. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/39 "2003-08-07T10:23:49Z")
December, polite? Is this the same guy who in GD claimed that he wouldn’t be surprised if London\_Calling put up a mural celebrating the attacks on 9/11. He’s not polite. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/40 "2003-08-07T10:43:38Z")
**Sam** : I seem to be responding to your posts an awful lot lately. Hope you don’t think I’m stalking you or anything. > [@](#): > > _The day December gets banned simply for posting political material that you guys don’t agree with or that you think is stupid or inflammatory is the day I take a walk out of here as well, for that truly would be censorship of ideas._ Yeah, me too. However, I don’t think it’s his ideas, per se, that lead so many posters to react to **december**. It’s the sense that his presence diminishes the quality of the discourse here. On a board ostensibly dedicated to the elimination of ignorance, posters like **Colluonsbury** get banned because they use a little obscenity in the wrong forum, while **december** spreads right-wing agit-prop like manure on a wheat field, and is seemingly untouchable. There’s something about it that just seems contrary to the spirit of the board, and that a lot of people react to – quite legitimately, IMHO. Fact is, **december** has learned how to be offensive without breaking the formal rules of the SDMB. Much like the current administration’s “not-lies” about Iraq, **december** is a “not-jerk.” But I agree with you, at least in part, and I wouldn’t want him banned, myself. He’s a direct conduit into the loony right, and reading him helps keep me up-to-date on the latest developments in that little ideological corner of the political globe. But it’s a mistake to take him seriously, or to labor under the illusion that reasoned, well-supported debate will change his mind. > [@](#): > > - I read the same sites December does. \* Yeah, that doesn’t surprise me. You guys should quit reading that stuff. It has a bad influence on you. > [@](#): > > - I recognize most of his arguments. They are views shared by a widespread spectrum of Americans, whether you like it or not. You can find Decembers opinions over at National Review Online, or on Instapundit, or FreeRepublic, or any number of other widely read conservative web sites. You may think they are all nuts, but they are well within the range of acceptable political debate.\* First off, the fact that such opinions are held by large numbers of Americans _does not_ make them any more legitimate, or any less offensive. Secondly, while they might be within “the range of acceptable debate,” the problem is that **december** doesn’t debate them. > [@](#): > > - The fact is, the SDMB population these days is WAY over on the left. In a country where 60% of the people approve of George Bush, there’s maybe 1 poster in 20 on this board who do. It’s largely made up of people that hate Bush with a passion. You guys spout conspiracy theories and leftist agitprop all the time, and you see it as ‘rational’. \* See, now you’re doing it again, **Sam**. Who are “you guys,” what “conspiracy theories/ leftist agitprop” do they “spout,” and who sees it as rational? While a nice rhetorical trick, it is honestly tiresome to see you try to take the high-road like this again and again. You haven’t cornered the market on rationality, **Sam** , and many others who post here are as rational as you, arguably more so. I can back that statement up with examples if you so wish. > [@](#): > > - don’t agree with a lot of what December posts. But then, the stuff I see posted on the left side of the spectrum…are, from my perspective, crazier than most of the stuff December says. And often far more offensive.\* I would be interested to see examples of posts from the “left side of the spectrum” that are crazier or more offensive that the stuff **december** posts. Since you’ve used the word “often,” I’d like a few examples, please. > [@](#): > > - And unlike many of you, December stays unfailingly polite, even in the face of obnoxious insults.\* Indeed, that is precisely how he gets away with being so obnoxious. > [@](#): > > - Calls for banning of December are way, way out of line. If you don’t like his arguments, debate them. If they frustrate you because he posts numerous cites and forces you to do the same to refute them, then **tough shit**.\* The frustration stems more, I think, for the fact that he posts references to unreliable, crappy sources – like blogs – and then simply refuses to admit it when his sources are discredited and his arguments refuted. On the other hand, I strongly agree with you on this point: regardless of how stupid, offensive, ill-informed, prejudicial, or false **december’s** posts might be, it would be wrong to ban him on the basis of his opinions. It’s very important, for the sake of this board, that a plurality of views be available; in fact, I would argue that **december** has been an invaluable ally of the left, by visibly demonstrating the moral and intellectual bankruptcy of the radical right. Thanks, **december**! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519.md?page=3)