# What is december still doing here? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 7, 2003, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519 "2003-08-07T04:13:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/101 "2003-08-07T19:38:13Z")
Thanks for the Cite. Reading it now. But obviously: > [@](#): > > This is all from that one thread. > > It should be noted that posters from all over the political spectrum denounced these fucktards. Shodan, gobear, ElJeffe, John Mace, myself and others. However, remember the actions of a few fucktards cannot be imputed to the whole. There is a word for that. As mentioned before, there were plenty of posters who were opposed to how quickly we were dragged into the war without the UN and under false pretenses but hoped we delivered a quick, safe and through invasion for the servicemembers who had to go over there (and could get their daddy’s friends to get them out of serving). I am a bit confused as to why those morons where not dragged into the Pit to be held properly accountable? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/102 "2003-08-07T19:47:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > **debaser** , if you’d taken time to read any of your cites, I did read it. BTW, it’s only from _one_ cite. Which has shown me that you probably haven’t read it. > [@](#): > > you might have noticed that they’re actually all saying the opposite of what you accuse them of. They are certainly _not_ expressing hope that people will get killed, but that it may be necessary to see that happen in order to keep even more from being killed later on. Bullshit. Some make this argument, but not all. **Dinsdale** , the thread starter clearly wants US casualties because it will make Bush look bad. Others do also. I made my case for this in the thread. Go back and read it. Anyways, even the others like **Latro** that have the fucking rediculous notion that US soldiers getting killed will prevent US soldiers getting killed, are inexcusable. Just because they have some crackpot theory that morally justifies killing the soldiers that doesn’t excuse their wishing for it. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/103 "2003-08-07T19:57:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Debaser \* > **And, as to the accusations of rudeness, give it up. He simply is one of the most polite posters on the board.** So, mangling quotes, twisting words, and ignoring or misrepresenting responses are “polite” tactics in a debate, are they? You give it up, dude. There are _far_ more polite and reasonable posters on the SDMB. They don’t paint all their opponents black with the widest brush possible. I’ll repeat it here again… just because **december** manages to adhere to the letter of the rules at the SDMB does not make him “polite.” It does, however, make him slippery as a greased pig. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Debaser \* > **I love how you are trying to make this non-partisan and yet you let Ann Coulter’s name slip in there. Whoops!** No, not “whoops”… Ann Coulter is widely regarded by many as one of the most partisan writers around, and she writes with a rightist slant. The comparison to **december** is a completely valid one. As far as blind partisanship, I could just as happily compare **december** to Michael Moore. However, I suspect he would be offended by the comparison to Moore, while the comparison to Coulter might actually make him happy. Just trying to be nice to him where I can, don’t’cha know. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/104 "2003-08-07T19:59:12Z")
Although an interesting post in that thread from our very own minister of misinformation: > [@](#): > > For me, the urgency is that Iraq has been attempting to get nuclear weapons. I think the battle was necessary before they got those weapons. Afterwards would be too late. Oops, turns out “those 16 words” are pretty important after all if that was the reason we **had** to invade right away-- right **december**. Right? That and the WMD’s ready to be used in 45 minutes notice. Oops, turns out **that** was a lie too. Well they did have tons of WMD just lying around then, right? Oops, another lie. Well, they were actively working with Al Queda. Oops, wrong again? What was the big rush for then? 😕 Wag the what now? :rolleyes: [http://slate.msn.com/id/11384/](http://slate.msn.com/id/11384/) > [@](#): > > 1. Overt Cynicism. The politician accuses Clinton of wagging the dog. Example: “It is obvious that he is doing this for political reasons” (Rep. Gerald Solomon, R-N.Y.). > > 2. Cynicism by innuendo. The accuser phrases the dog-wagging charge obliquely so that he can deny having made it. Example: “We have had either hostilities or threatened hostilities at interesting times throughout the last year” (incoming House Speaker Bob Livingston). > > 3. Backhanded cynicism. The accuser implies dog-wagging by saying either a) he can’t bring himself to believe Clinton would wag the dog; or b) the White House has assured him it’s not so. Example: “While I have been assured by administration officials that there is no connection with the impeachment process … \*\*oth the timing and the policy are subject to question” (Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott). Damn traitors-- they should be shot on sight! 😉 Cool-- Pubbies agrument for impeachment of Bush (just swap names): > [@](#): > > 1. Circular vicarious cynicism. Unable to prove that Clinton wagged the dog, Republicans argue that the mere suspicion of dog-wagging is grounds for impeachment. Examples: “The suspicion some people have about the president’s motives in this attack is itself a powerful argument for impeachment” (Armey). “Perceptions that the American president is less interested in the global consequences than in taking any action that will enable him to hold onto power [are] a further demonstration that he has dangerously compromised himself in conducting the nation’s affairs, and should be impeached” (Wall Street Journal editorial). Damn Saddam lovin’ commies! I am sure \*\*december \*\* will be along shortly to denounce them too. [starts waiting] ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/105 "2003-08-07T20:01:03Z")
**Debaser** , that is some cold-assed shit. Not what some of those posters had to say, but the way you affirmatively misrepresented what they had to say. For instance, you quote **Dinsdale** as saying: > [@](#): > > I feel it is almost desirable that we incur some sizeable casualties - in order for the public to be forced to acknowledge the enormity of this undertaking, and to prevent the administration that initiated it from deflecting justified criticism in the popular glow following a fast, relatively painless victory. But not only do you ignore that he said he _almost_ felt that way, you quote so selectively that you OMIT the perfectly clear words Dinsdale wrote in that same post: > [@](#): > > I truly do not wish harm upon any individual in the US/coalition military. (Misleadingly selective quotations . . . Does that remind anybody of a certain other person who starts lots of bullshit OP’s in GD?) None of the American posters you quote can fairly be characterized–as you did above–as “wishing out loud for the deaths of American soldiers.” They _all_ made it clear that they did _not_ wish death upon soldiers, frequently making the point their hope was the nation would learn the folly of its war-mongering policies _and thereby prevent even greater loss of lives in the future_. E.g., **TVAA** : “If the war goes well, and this strategy becomes the avowed doctrine of the US, then many more people will eventually die.” **MMI** : “The flip side is I don’t want any of our servicepeople to die. I do not know that I could face the math, of having people die, even if it could alter potential enemies perceptions.” **TVAA** : “I wouldn’t **prefer** the suffering and death of those involved in the war.” **Latro:** “What other way do you people see to prevent this nightmare [i.e., “a century of war”] from unfolding?” (Oh, and the heck with **Estilicon**. Dude’s from Argentina. He’s entitled to pick any side he wants when two other countries start duking it out.) They may be misguided, but you, sir, are a grade-A clod. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/106 "2003-08-07T20:05:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Debaser \* > \*\*Ok. So we argue about banning **december** too much. The only solution is to bad **december**. > > That makes sense almost. :rolleyes: \*\* If you can manage to pull your head out of your ass, would you mind showing me where _I_ called for december’s banning? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/107 "2003-08-07T20:06:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avalonian \* > \*\*:rolleyes: > > I don’t worship **Poly** , but I do consider him one of the most level-headed and fair-minded posters on this board. I don’t recall any other time that I’ve seen him react in the way he did to **december** ’s vile OP. In general, he’s presents himself on the boards as very calm and difficult to rouse to anger. He’s certainly more level-headed than I am, sometimes. > > In short, you and your insinuations can fuck the fuck off. Just because I admire someone (and I do admire **Polycarp** ) doesn’t mean I worship them. I don’t worship anyone. \*\* 😃 Insinuations? Oh, Lordy. If you’d read the first page, you would likely have avoided helping to prove a point I made. At any rate, I too consider Poly to be one of the most level-headed and fair-minded posters on this board. As such, he will be the first to tell you that he has indeed blown up before and reacted inappropriately — yessiree, right here on this board. But Poly knows that I love him, and that’s not something I have to prove to you. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/108 "2003-08-07T20:12:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > **😃 Insinuations? Oh, Lordy. If you’d read the first page, you would likely have avoided helping to prove a point I made.** Care to enlighten me, then? I did read the first page, but failed to see anything there that applies to your insinuating that I “worship” anyone. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*At any rate, I too consider Poly to be one of the most level-headed and fair-minded posters on this board. As such, he will be the first to tell you that he has indeed blown up before and reacted inappropriately — yessiree, right here on this board. But Poly knows that I love him, and that’s not something I have to prove to you. \*\* I didn’t ask you to… and if you agree with me about **Polycarp** , then what was the point of your post at all? Just to be snippy? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/109 "2003-08-07T20:20:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avalonian \* > However, I suspect he would be offended by the comparison to Moore, while the comparison to Coulter might actually make him happy. \*\* My legs are nicer. 😉 **elf6c** asks an interesting question: _Suppose Saddam had a nuclear program but wasn’t close to actually deploying or using nukes. What was the big rush for then?_ My answer is that doing the right thing is more important than getting the timing just so. If we toppled Saddam’s regime 5 years before his nukes would have come on line, rather than 1 year before, so what? The important thing is that we stopped him from getting nukes. And, a side benefit is that thousands of Iraqis won’t be killed, tortured and imprisoned by the Ba’ath regime. Also, we had to make a decision under uncertainty. We still don’t know just how close Saddam was to acquiring nuclear weapons. We certainly weren’t sure before the war. I, for one, wouldn’t have wanted to give Saddam the benefit of the doubt. His past actions prove that he didn’t deserve the benefit of the doubt. And, waiting too long could have led to disaster. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/110 "2003-08-07T20:20:32Z")
\*\*Debaser[/b, it has been shown (and pitifully easily) that the people you’re quoting did not say what you claim they said. You’ve even gone some way to admitting that now, and you’re down to still misrepresenting only 1 of your cites. Was that last omission deliberate, to somehow avoid admitting in public that you’re not only a shithead but an obnoxious one too? A mind is a terrible thing to waste. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/111 "2003-08-07T20:29:00Z")
**Elvis** , seems to me december found himself another student. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/112 "2003-08-07T21:03:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > A mind is a terrible thing to waste. You, sir, are deliberately misrepresenting **Debaser**. How dare you espouse the unfounded and entirely illegitimate opinion that **Debaser** is anything more than a Turing test with mangled coding? Have you no shame? Knowingly going into a battle of wits with one who is unarmed is a cruel and despicable practice indeed. It is utterly disgraceful that you continue to do this in the face of the objective proof that **Debaser** was not made to handle those tasks you have given him. **ElvisL1ves** , have you at last no decency? ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/113 "2003-08-07T21:22:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Leander > > I’m surprised that you’re surprised since it is an opinion that you yourself expressed. Don’t sell yourself short by thinking you’re in a minority. \*\* No. I said no such thing. DO NOT put words in my mouth. It’s against the rules here and you know it. What I said was that I felt that way about _one_ poster here. I DO NOT feel that way about the majorirty of the posters here. And I made that perfectly clear. But again, I’m sorry your experiences are different. Perhaps that reflects more on _your_ individual style than a general trend. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/114 "2003-08-07T21:29:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Leander > > I’m surprised that you’re surprised since it is an opinion that you yourself expressed. Don’t sell yourself short by thinking you’re in a minority. \*\* No. I said no such thing. DO NOT put words in my mouth. It’s against the rules here and you know it. What I said was that I felt that way about _one_ poster here. I DO NOT feel that way about the majorirty of the posters here. And I made that perfectly clear. But again, I’m sorry your experiences are different. Perhaps that reflects more on _your_ individual style than a general trend. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/115 "2003-08-07T21:41:47Z")
Is there anyone who thinks that **december** does NOT hyperbolize his rhetoric with the intention of being inciteful? ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/116 "2003-08-07T22:02:47Z")
As surly as the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, as surely as the guy with the shovel and wheelbarrow follows the elephants in the circus parade, out friend **december** will post his weekly, or semi-weekly, or daily, or in some cases hourly little packet of balderdash on one of two subjects–either that all Democrats of every kind, character and description are evil or stupid or misinformed or that all Muslims of every kind character and description are murderous and untrustworthy. Now that’s pretty much it. Once in a while he will throw in a curve ball on some other topic but that is a rare event. Mostly it’s Democrats and Muslims–BOOO! An we, the general membership, by and large well read, rational, moderate and only mildly skeptical of government, like a bunch of hatchery raised trout, rise to the bait again and again. Our boy has once again passed through the looking glass and released another honey coated hate grenade into our living rooms–this time equating Democrats with Islamic terrorists. Now, on its face the proposition is silly (which is worse than preposterous and dishonest, although it is both preposterous and dishonest) What does the general membership do in the face of all this? It either screams in outrage at the unfairness of the proposition or earnestly take up the cudgel and tries to debate and rebut our friend’s proposition point by point. Neither approach makes the least impression on our friend. Neither will make the slightest impression on our friend. This is because our mutual antagonist is either unshakeably convinced of his own righteousness or, more likely, he doesn’t care that his assertions are putrid and reprehensible garbage. When my kids were little they would tease each other mercilessly. It was only when they figured out that the motivation for the teasing was to elicit a reaction and they quit reacting that the teasing stopped. I suspect that if our friend"s balderdash were treated with the disdain it deserves our friend might become discouraged. There is no point to setting a fire if the fire trucks don’t come screaming down the street with all the lights flashing and firemen clinging to the tail gate, their rubberized coats flapping in the wind. There is no pleasure in pulling your sister’s hair if she doesn’t yell. We are dealing with an elderly retired actuary from, for God’s sake, New Jersey. From a lifetime of calculating statics his soul has withered and hardened until it is no bigger and no more use than a clinker from an old time coal furnace. To hell with him. Let him howl his abuse and irrational diatribes into the wind and hear no response but the echo of his own voice. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/117 "2003-08-07T22:11:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spavined Gelding \* > \*\*We are dealing with an elderly retired actuary from, for God’s sake, New Jersey. From a lifetime of calculating statics his soul has withered and hardened until it is no bigger and no more use than a clinker from an old time coal furnace. To hell with him. Let him howl his abuse and irrational diatribes into the wind and hear no response but the echo of his own voice. \*\* Whew… couldn’t have put it better myself. ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/118 "2003-08-07T22:12:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*My legs are nicer. 😉 > > **elf6c** asks an interesting question: _Suppose Saddam had a nuclear program but wasn’t close to actually deploying or using nukes. What was the big rush for then?_ > > My answer is that doing the right thing is more important than getting the timing just so. If we toppled Saddam’s regime 5 years before his nukes would have come on line, rather than 1 year before, so what? The important thing is that we stopped him from getting nukes. And, a side benefit is that thousands of Iraqis won’t be killed, tortured and imprisoned by the Ba’ath regime. > > Also, we had to make a decision under uncertainty. We still don’t know just how close Saddam was to acquiring nuclear weapons. We certainly weren’t sure before the war. I, for one, wouldn’t have wanted to give Saddam the benefit of the doubt. His past actions prove that he didn’t deserve the benefit of the doubt. And, waiting too long could have led to disaster. \*\* LOL. 1. Hard to develop a nuclear weapon when you have no active program or fissionable materials. Remember “those 16 words” are an acknowledged falsehood (except by Tony Blair, whose administration’s fate now seems to depend on the African nuclear materials fiasco). 2. This do the right thing claim is poorly thought out revisionist history. If true, why go now and not when Bush took office? Why not wait for the UN like his father did? Why Iraq and not Iran or North Korea. The people of Liberia only got a few token troops in support roles. Guess they needed more oil. North Korea is a **much** worse situation for a suffering of the people, WMD development, and WMD proliferation stand point. Wonder why George is waiting there? In fact, the Iraqi people’s suffering only came to the forefront after the WMD’s and Terrorism support claims trued out to be false and the heat was on. 1. The only disaster which Curious George seemed to be interested in preventing is an electoral one. 2. Also I have presented many polls (with links even) showing the growing disbelief of the American populace with regards to the Bush Adminisration’s claims on Iraq. Given his failures on Al Queda and dubious military background I doubt ole George feels to good on that point right now. Thanks for playing- you may want to get some new talking points from [rushlimbaugh.com](http://rushlimbaugh.com) though, the old stuff is getting pretty far out of date. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/119 "2003-08-07T22:29:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by leander \* > \*\*No. I said no such thing. DO NOT put words in my mouth. It’s against the rules here and you know it. > > What I said was that I felt that way about _one_ poster here. I DO NOT feel that way about the majorirty of the posters here. And I made that perfectly clear. > > But again, I’m sorry your experiences are different. Perhaps that reflects more on _your_ individual style than a general trend. :eek: \*\* What you said was this: “I’m actually quite surprised that you think that most people have this opinion.” My response was: “I’m surprised that you’re surprised since it is an opinion that you yourself expressed. Don’t sell yourself short by thinking you’re in a minority.” Where is the alleged misquote? So far in this thread, you are the very epitome of the way you have characterized December, which, to refresh your memory, was this: "…his debating “style” is so obnoxious, spurious, vile, insulting, devious, backhanded, etc.etc… " Everything quoted above is copied and pasted verbatim, Mr. or Ms. Pot. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2003, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/120 "2003-08-07T22:57:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avalonian \* > \*\*Whew… couldn’t have put it better myself. \*\* And is exactly what I was getting at earlier but _some_ people assumed I was calling for a banning. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519.md?page=7)