# What is december still doing here? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 7, 2003, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519 "2003-08-07T04:13:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/141 "2003-08-08T12:53:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coil \* > \*\*I think that a lot of the debates started by **december** can be quite interesting reading and quite enjoyable to read, apart from the posters who respond just by calling him an idiot and never seriously try to counter his arguments. \*\* cite? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/142 "2003-08-08T13:27:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coil \* > \*\*I think that a lot of the debates started by **december** can be quite interesting reading and quite enjoyable to read, apart from the posters who respond just by calling him an idiot and never seriously try to counter his arguments. \*\* :sigh: Here we go again. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2440134&highlight=december#post2440134](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2440134&highlight=december#post2440134) ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/143 "2003-08-08T13:40:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Debaser \* > I’m posting while drunk. Amazing, I couldn’t tell the difference at all. ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/144 "2003-08-08T14:04:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jeff Olsen \* > \*\*:sigh: > Here we go again. > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2440134&highlight=december#post2440134](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2440134&highlight=december#post2440134) \*\* Thanks Jeff. I have almost given up correcting the happily self-deluded at this point. **december** is the one who cannot be bothered to argue a point. He just deliberately posts Op Ed materials or inflamatory OP’s and then runs away like a coward. If he does return it is for an unresponsive driveby which ignores all the well cited (a concept which seems to be well beyond **december’s** capability) responses. In there is a thread going right now in the Pit started by **december** is which he repeats this pattern again. No matter how stupid the dipshit there is always some apologist that comes out to either distort what is really going on, or post without a damn clue what they are talking about. I call it the “anti-Clique” or the “self-appointed dipshit defense force”. Cite: (there’s a concept huh): [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=202730&pagenumber=4](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=202730&pagenumber=4) Notice after I posted a well cited rebuttal directed to **december** ten minutes later he slinks in and posts a driveby ignoring all the posts which refute his drivel. Other posters call him out on this, and as usual he cowardly slinks away to [rushlimaugh.com](http://rushlimaugh.com) for some more dogma gathering. After I predicted (correctly) that **december** would duck the issue he did. Cite: **Blalron** : > [@](#): > > Yes, is definitely going to duck this one. If you post anything that refutes his arguments, he pretends like it doesn’t exist. > > December, I DARE you to respond to elf6c. If you want to prove that you have any balls or personal integrity AT ALL and aren’t just an obtuse one sided political hack. and **iampunha** corrected noted: > [@](#): > > I thought the doubt had been removed entirely from that issue long ago… Yet, after repeatedly being called out **december** still cowers in the bushes, taking solice in Fox News Channel and the far-right Op Ed pieces. I am sure he is getting another incorrect and misleading together as we speak. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/145 "2003-08-08T14:40:19Z")
One man’s cowering in the bushes is another man’s rising above the fray. There have been an awful lot of asinine, jejune, and infantile insults hurled in this thread — all of them coming from the direction of his detractors, and none of them from him. As I said when I first stumbled into this now hopeless trainwreck of a thread, all is perception. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/146 "2003-08-08T15:01:22Z")
**Libertarian** , your capacity for parody (whether intentional or not) is truly astounding. Thanks for the laugh, man… best one I’ve had all morning. “…rising above the fray…” _chortle_ ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/147 "2003-08-08T15:02:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avalonian \* > \*\*First, **Shodan** , it wasn’t a misrepresentation. It was dead-on. > \*\* You are incorrect. It was a misrepresentation. Here is the direct quote from **Polycarp** : > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*December, I recently threw a fit elsewhere at people agreeing with Anne Coulter that Democrats and liberals are committing treason. > > This is perhaps the most despicable thing I’ve ever seen. > > In short, to prevent Arab dictators from instituting terrorist attacks on the U.S., you would suppress American freedom to disagree with the person in office? > > Fine – you have just called for an dictatorship in America.\*\* I have removed the personal insult with which he ended his post. Here is **december** ’s post (minus the cut and paste from the site to which he linked): > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Terrorist leader calls for jihad against US in order to elect Democrats > > The secretary-general of Hezbollah called for attacks against Americans in order to remove the Bush administration and elect Democrats who, he says, would withdraw American forcres from Iraq. > > \ > > Points to debate (along with my opinions): > > 1. Is Nasrallah’s strategy reasonable? Unfortunately, I think it is. Continuing terror attacks against Americans could hurt Bush’s chances for re-election. Dean and several other leading Democrats have made statements indicating opposition to Bush’s Iraq policy. > > 2. Are anti-war comments by these leading Democrats encouraging the murder of Americans in the middle east? Evidently the answer is Yes, whether one likes it or not. > > 3. In view of this impact, should Democratic leaders be more careful of what they say? I think Democratic Presidential candidates would be well-advised to take a line saying that whatever their differences with Bush, if elected they would fully committed to the Iraqi occupation. > > 4. If comments by Democratic leaders are serving to encourage America’s enemies, do these comments constitute treason? Not at all IMHO. It’s an unfortunate side-effect of free speech. _(Emphasis added - Shodan)_ > > 5. Should Dean and others apologize to the families of slain servicemen, since their comments encouraged the attacks against them? Yes. > > 6. Is it appropriate to note and debate whether anti-war Democratic statements serve to encourage some terrorists? Absolutely. These statements are protected free speech, but we needn’t be in denial about their adverse consequences._(Emphasis added - Shodan)_ > \*\* Nowhere in this post does **december** suggest any limitations on any freedom. Nor is there any implied or explicit call for dictatorship. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avalonian \* > \*\* > If you look back at the thread, I believe you’ll see that **Gaudere** moved the thread because the OP was “rabble-rousing.” The OP itself was a violation of the rules of GD, and it was believed that the reaction was justified. And indeed, it was. > \*\* Again, you are mistaken. The only reference to any violation of the rules of GD came from the personal insults being issued. > [@](#): > > [Moderator Hat ON] > > This seems more like rabble-rousing than debate, so I’m tossing it to the Pit. However, Mtgman, while you are in this forum you will not refer to a fellow poster as a “fencepost”, understood? > > [Moderator Hat OFF] I took the reference to “this” to mean that the trend of debate - which trend was instigated by **Mgtman** and **Polycarp** violating the rules of GD with personal insults - was “rabblerousing”. No reference was made to the OP, and, AFAICT, the thread would not have been moved to the Pit unless personal insults were not employed. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avalonian \* > \*\* > And do you honestly, in your heart of hearts, think he isn’t? > \*\* Of course he is. What I object to is the fact that those on the Left can engage in exactly the same sort of distortion, misrepresentation, and personal insults, that they accuse **december** of, and it passes unremarked. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/148 "2003-08-08T15:36:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*One man’s cowering in the bushes is another man’s rising above the fray. There have been an awful lot of asinine, jejune, and infantile insults hurled in this thread — all of them coming from the direction of his detractors, and none of them from him. > > As I said when I first stumbled into this now hopeless trainwreck of a thread, all is perception. \*\* If you had bothered to read the Cite you would have seen, repeatedly, that **december** ducked the factual, well cited discussions that refuted his points. As is his typical tactic- he ducked and ran. Given that **december** claimed that anyone opposing the Administration was causing terrorist attacks on american servicemembers (among his other offenses) is hardly “rising above the fray” now is it? Gee, why would that annoy anyone? As for this “asinine, jejune, and infantile insults hurled in this thread” I find it amusing ironic. Thanks for the chuckle. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/149 "2003-08-08T15:56:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Debaser \* > **You quote a sentance of Dinsdale saying he “truly do not wish harm upon any individual in the US/coalition military.” Gee, what a swell guy. He only wants them to suffer large casualites. That sounds like wishing harm to me. It’s just not on an individual basis. Whatever.** This thread exists because **december** said a horrific thing with a weasely qualifier. He said something very much like “war opponents owe apologies to the families of servicemen” and “clearly their opposition is encouraging the murder of Americans”. Oh, but wait, his defenders cry. He also clearly said it’s not treason. Ok, so we’ve got a conflict here. Aiding the enemy and encouraging the death of one’s own troops is the definition of treason. And if you’re not aiding the enemy, then what the fuck do you have to apologize to the people killed by that enemy for? I’d like to know why **Dinsdale’s** caveat doesn’t excuse his horrific wishing of harm on US forces, yet, somehow, **december’s** “it’s not treason” somehow excuses the clear accusations of providing support to the enemy and bearing culpability for the deaths of the troops. Lots of bad shit has been said in the context of the war in Iraq threads. It is up to each individual to decide if the caveats most people added onto their horrific statements are sincere or not. Judge as you will, if you feel you must, and let others do the same. Statements like “I can’t fucking believe you weren’t outraged” can be flung by either side, depending on whose caveats each member on each side finds credible. Don’t make the mistake of thinking your reaction is, or should be, universal. That’s actually the trait that gets **december** in the most hot water. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/150 "2003-08-08T17:02:31Z")
Good points, Mtgman. And for the record, in case Debaser gets back on his “Why aren’t you outraged?!?” bandwagon w/r/t the Dinsdale thread, I wasn’t outraged by december’s thread either. It’s never worthwhile to get outraged by somebody else’s masturbatory fantasies. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/151 "2003-08-09T07:21:47Z")
Mtgman > [@](#): > > He said something very much like “war opponents owe apologies to the families of servicemen” and “clearly their opposition is encouraging the murder of Americans”. It took me a while to find it, but I think you meant this: > [@](#): > > _From December:_ Should Dean and others apologize to the families of slain servicemen, since their comments encouraged the attacks against them? Yes. As far as I can see, he is talking about politicians, and then only the leaders at that, and then only those who used their bully pulpits. From these particulars — vocal oppostion political strategists taking advantage of a propaganda tactic — you have taken the liberty to extrapolate a broad generality — war opponents — and the result is, in my view, a pair of wholesale misquotes. And you called what you made up “very much like” what December actually said. Oy. See if you can find in your post where you said something very much like “this thread exists because people who support Bush are weasles who say horrific things”. If you can’t find it, it means that your skills have suddenly abandoned you. As to this: > [@](#): > > And if you’re not aiding the enemy, then what the fuck do you have to apologize to the people killed by that enemy for? I think he has drawn an intelligent distinction between aiding and inciting. It is remarkable to me, as neither a Democrat nor a Republican, that the same people who accuse December of deliberately inciting left-liberal posters here on the SDMB fail to see how a politician’s vocal opposition to a president’s policies in a time of conflict can incite a nation’s enemies. I am now convinced, after this thread, that were December to wish people a Happy Chanukah, those of you who oppose him here would accuse him of saying something “very much like” that he hates Christians. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/152 "2003-08-09T16:11:10Z")
And here is [Exhibit A](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=203331) of why some think December has been unfairly singled out when his thread got redirected to _le Pit_. There is not a single meaningful post in that thread, and at least as much vitriole as in December’s. At least December had something to debate in his thread, even if it was pretty far our there. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/153 "2003-08-09T17:32:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*It’s never worthwhile to get outraged by somebody else’s masturbatory fantasies. \*\* _The left/right scism Explained via jism._ ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/154 "2003-08-09T17:50:11Z")
John: The thread you have pointed out is more recent than the one in question - an accusation of unfair treatment is retroactive. True, it lacked real content to debate, but it also was not a direct accusation of treason and murder, against not only specific public individuals but against the portion of the board membership that happens not to share his POV. It is that personal insult that is causing us to react as sharply asa we have done here. Reeder, for all of his obsessively filtered views, confines them to denouncing specific actions by the Bush administration. He does accept responsibility for what he says, too, and does not attempt to deflect demands for that with stupid rhymes. If you yourself care to defend december, you do need to be more careful about how. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/155 "2003-08-09T18:13:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*… it also was not a direct accusation of treason and murder, against not only specific public individuals but against the portion of the board membership that happens not to share his POV. \*\* Of course I made no such accusation, as has been pointed out. That other thread intended a real debate. \* Are some statements by politicians harmful to the country?\* Some of my political adversaries don’t want to look into that question. So they inflated it to a horrific accusation and they now accuse me of having made a horrific accusation. That’s a way of evading the question. (BTW, even Anne Coulter’s preposterous accusation of treason ought to be refuted, in addition to criticizing her excessive vituperation.) As with most evasions, accusing me of horrific criticism is unattractive. I can recall Geraldine Ferraro in the VP debate dramatically saying, “Don’t patronize me!” She got a big hand at the time, but I think it hurt her in the long run. The public recognized that her comment was an excuse to avoid debate. They didn’t like it. Maybe it comes down to who one is trying to convince. If my OP was an insult to leftists, that’s a big deal to leftists. Nobody likes to be insulted. But, centrists don’t care if leftists or rightists get insulted. Centrists have to be shown that my accusation was wrong. My thread was a good opportunity for Democrats to practice how they would explain to centrists why they should be trusted on national security. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/156 "2003-08-09T19:06:57Z")
Elvis: The alleged insult to SMDB members was, with all due respect, in the mind of those members. I, and many others, clearly read December’s OP to refer to **politicians and particularly political leaders**. You can say “Well we all know he meant to insult so-and-so”, but the fact of the matter (and GD is dedicated to facts) is that we **do not** know that. Anyway, I wasn’t so much defending December as pointing out that his thread seems to have been fairly arbitrarily sentenced to the Pit while others of similar tone remain happily in GD. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/157 "2003-08-09T19:26:38Z")
> [@](#): > > So they inflated it to a horrific accusation and they now accuse me of having made a horrific accusation. pot. kettle. black. whats the point in refuting your claims, when you are going to ignore the refuations? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/158 "2003-08-10T12:45:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > I, and many others, clearly read December’s OP to refer to **politicians and particularly political leaders**. You can say “Well we all know he meant to insult so-and-so”, but the fact of the matter (and GD is dedicated to facts) is that we **do not** know that. Perhaps you can explain how one can accuse political leaders of treason and murder while \*not[/] implying that their supporters thereby support treason and murder. He has certainly not been shy about using that “reasoning” in the past, on this and other matters, has he? So, yes, given the lack of alternatives, we do “know that”. His denial that that is his meaning therefore bears no credibility whatsoever, nor does his ridiculous statement immediately above that _he_ is avoiding the issue. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/159 "2003-08-10T14:17:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*Perhaps you can explain how one can accuse political leaders of treason and murder while \*not[/] implying that their supporters thereby support treason and murder. \*\* I didn’t accuse political leaders of murder, nor did I accuse their followers of treason and murder. However, I do accuse you of torturing facts and logic. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519/160 "2003-08-10T15:42:45Z")
I agree with **Sam Stone** and **Mr. Svinlesha** , along with others, that **december’s** presence here is invaluable. It is like having a mole in the opposition, a listening device in the Watergate Hotel. I find it pretty easy to avoid getting outraged by **december’s** posts because it is pretty clear that he is relatively mindless about what he posts. He simply scours blogs and other neoconservative websites, hits upon some talking point or some conservative argument that would go unchallenged where he reads it (but is painfully flawed in the light of day) and cuts and pastes it here. Typically he gives it some title in the form of a “thoughtful” question, such as “Does Hillary Clinton’s physical appearance mean a landslide for George Bush in 2004?” He then sits back to watch, occasionally making some weak stab at debate, probably culled from the same source as the one he found the OP. I think that there are times his actual thinking gets put into a post, which is when you see the really offensive stuff come out. Generally, though, he is a mindless bot. He should be useful, though, as a reference for precursors to arguments that you will end up seeing on Meet The Press, and for that reason, should be kept around. It’s like having a runner on second who can tell the batter which pitch is being called. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-december-still-doing-here/193519.md?page=9)