# What Is "Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion", and Is It a Good Thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 4, 2024, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-and-is-it-a-good-thing/999804 "2024-04-04T01:46:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2024, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-and-is-it-a-good-thing/999804/81 "2024-04-07T19:12:51Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Men and women are equal, but are not identical. The genders are definitely equal in certain contexts. I said that there’s no guarantee that the balance will be perfectly equal across all contexts, if we accept that we’re not identical. If you know that guarantee, I’m fine to check out the issuer. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2024, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-and-is-it-a-good-thing/999804/82 "2024-04-07T20:10:42Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Do you want to stand by that quote attribution? Not a direct quote, but just the same really: > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > If you can track down the real research, and the methodologies, then we can discuss something. In any case the point stands, you started and continued with the pondering, not much about countering the papers and reports. Looking back, you just pointed at research that shows the difficulties when management is not really in favor of change. It is a bit like the big Republican racket of getting elected to show that they where right, that government is bad so they will get elected to ensure that. And so it goes for companies that keep finding excuses to continue to give preferential treatment to straight cis white men. You did notice what Republicans in Congress got in the latest negotiations for funding? (yes, it was related to what we are talking here) ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2024, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-and-is-it-a-good-thing/999804/83 "2024-04-07T20:27:20Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > In any case the point stands, you started and continued with the pondering I don’t know that, if someone said, “Let’s look at the details.” That what they secretly meant was, “I bet that research doesn’t really exist, ha-HAH!” I’d generally take it to mean that they were curious to look at the details. That’s the plain and obvious reading, no? Via your posts, you’ve tertiarilly referenced probably several dozen papers. Over time, we might be able to go through all of those and find the ones that seem well executed and relatively definitive. But it’s infeasible to try and address _all of them_, all at the same time. It’s too easy to bounce around and avoid direct questions and, even if we assume that everyone would behave well, it would still just be confusing. You introduced them. It’s your pick which to attack first. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-and-is-it-a-good-thing/999804/84 "2024-04-08T00:04:06Z")
Let’s remember that you declared that you wanted to see years of evidence on this. In general, logic says that more evidence coming out is good. hanging on to defeating one… is what many who want to delay change usually do. And, well, already we did see what took place when I pointed at the evidence: > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > > [@GIGObuster](#): > > > > [How Diversity Makes Us Smarter | Scientific American](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-diversity-makes-us-smarter/) > > I’ll grant that the described format of the studies (which begin about halfway down the article) seem reasonable. However, they also sound like small tests on small groups of college students. Given that professors are liable to run such tests many years in a row, I’d want to know how many years it was run before giving a positive result Then, later, I pointed at this one that showed that after a decade others do encounter similar results (And Discord is complaining that I posted this link already, so yes, the point I made later is a valid one, you are demanding what I already posted.): > **[Diversity matters even more: The case for holistic impact](https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/diversity-and-inclusion/diversity-matters-even-more-the-case-for-holistic-impact)** > > In this latest research, we look at why diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) matters more than ever before, and how it can drive holistic business impact. > _ **Diversity Matters Even More** _ is the fourth report in a McKinsey series investigating the business case for diversity, following _[Why Diversity Matters](https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/people-and-organizational-performance/our-insights/why-diversity-matters)_ (2015), _[Delivering Through Diversity](https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/people-and-organizational-performance/our-insights/delivering-through-diversity)_ (2018), and _[Diversity Wins](https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/diversity-and-inclusion/diversity-wins-how-inclusion-matters)_ (2020). For almost a decade through our Diversity Matters series of reports, McKinsey has delivered a comprehensive global perspective on the relationship between leadership diversity and company performance. This year, the business case is the strongest it has been since we’ve been tracking and, for the first time in some areas, equitable representation is in sight. Further, a striking new finding is that leadership diversity is also convincingly associated with holistic growth ambitions, greater social impact, and more satisfied workforces. > For this report, the fourth edition of _Diversity Matters_, we drew on our largest dataset yet—spanning 1,265 companies, 23 countries, and six global regions, and multiple company interviews. We also extended our research and interview focus beyond the relationship between diversity and financial performance, for the first time exploring the [holistic impact](https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/driving-holistic-impact) of diversity on communities, workforces, and the environment. > The business case for gender diversity on executive teams[1] has more than doubled over the past decade. Each of our reports—2015, 2018, 2020, and now 2023—has found a steady upward trend, tracking ever greater representation of women on executive teams. At each time point we have assessed the data, the likelihood of financial outperformance gap has grown: Our 2015 report found top-quartile companies had a 15 percent greater likelihood of financial outperformance versus their bottom-quartile peers; this year, that figure hits 39 percent (Exhibit 1). ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-and-is-it-a-good-thing/999804/85 "2024-04-08T15:40:15Z")
This is starting to be reminiscent of climate change denial. There are numerous studies all of which point in the direction that a diversity of viewpoints improves performance. This is the consensus view of social scientists, and also simply makes intuitive sense, for reasons like @Voyager’s [anecdote](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-and-is-it-a-good-thing/999804/77). To then say well unless I check each of these studies methodology individually and even then will probably need a bunch more studies before I can really draw a conclusion, suggests an ideological motive to reject the findings. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-and-is-it-a-good-thing/999804/86 "2024-04-08T16:00:17Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > you declared that you wanted to see years of evidence on this. I’m rather curious about this book, “Quotes, Statements, and Declarations of Sage Rat”. It’s one thing if it’s all just things I didn’t say (you’re free to search the thread for any such quote or statement), but I’m not even getting royalties? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-and-is-it-a-good-thing/999804/87 "2024-04-08T16:10:20Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > This is starting to be reminiscent of climate change denial. The latest nitpicking on things like his “quotes” (and the last one was not, and yet, he complained about not knowing how many years of research on this has taken place, being told is never enough) is also one thing I do see coming from many deniers. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-and-is-it-a-good-thing/999804/88 "2024-04-08T16:28:38Z")
Before this thread I was not really sure about what was meant by equity. I spent 40 years running truck repair shops and hiring all the mechanics. I would get a lot of applicants where it was obvious they lacked language and social skills. I always took that into consideration and would very often hire them and work with them a bit more than I normally would. In most cases it paid off with very loyal hardworking employees. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-and-is-it-a-good-thing/999804/89 "2024-04-08T16:29:20Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > he complained about not knowing how many years of research on this has taken place Again, you’re free to find where I **actually** said this. Should I involve the mods? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-and-is-it-a-good-thing/999804/90 "2024-04-08T16:30:45Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > There are numerous studies all of which point in the direction that a diversity of viewpoints improves performance. I haven’t said otherwise so…? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-and-is-it-a-good-thing/999804/91 "2024-04-08T17:12:44Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Again, you’re free to find where I **actually** said this. Should I involve the mods? So, I noted that that was not a quote, but a paraphrase, and you want to discuss this instead of the evidence? O well. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I’ll grant that the described format of the studies (which begin about halfway down the article) seem reasonable. However, they also sound like small tests on small groups of college students. Given that professors are liable to run such tests many years in a row, I’d want to know how many years it was run before giving a positive result ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-and-is-it-a-good-thing/999804/92 "2024-04-08T17:17:19Z")
I was referring to the File Drawer Problem (publication bias). Saying “I’d like to see replication of results to rule out the potential of publication bias” is not equivalent to “No one tracks this stuff. We have no history of information.” And I’m a bit skeptical that you genuinely misread it as such. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > As said, I’d want to see replication, larger groups, to be sure that the person running the study can’t influence the outcomes, and to be sure that the participants aren’t aware of what they’re being asked to model. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-and-is-it-a-good-thing/999804/93 "2024-04-08T17:34:33Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > However, they also sound like small tests on small groups of college students. Well, it was not, care to check the reports and papers now? > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I was referring to the File Drawer Problem (publication bias). > > Saying “I’d like to see replication of results to rule out the potential of publication bias” is not equivalent to “No one tracks this stuff. We have no history of information.” And I’m a bit skeptical that you genuinely misread it as such. That is not better, change what I said then to: replication was made, tracking that is not hard. From the quoted McKinsey & Company report: > The business case for gender diversity on executive teams[1] has more than doubled over the past decade. Each of our reports—2015, 2018, 2020, and now 2023—has found a steady upward trend, tracking ever greater representation of women on executive teams. At each time point we have assessed the data, the likelihood of financial outperformance gap has grown: Our 2015 report found top-quartile companies had a 15 percent greater likelihood of financial outperformance versus their bottom-quartile peers; this year, that figure hits 39 percent (Exhibit 1). ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-and-is-it-a-good-thing/999804/94 "2024-04-08T17:42:46Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > care to check the reports and papers now? YES, THAT’S WHAT I WANT TO DO. Jesus fuck, man. How many times and _how explicitly_ do I have to ask you to just link to an actual fucking study so that we can run through the details? > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Now, again, perhaps if we dive into the details we might see that this is all ruled out. You’re posting links to pop journalism articles that casually handwave towards “research”. It doesn’t give much insight into questions of what was actually done, at a highly detailed level. > > If you can track down the real research, and the methodologies, then we can discuss something. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Via your posts, you’ve tertiarilly referenced probably several dozen papers. Over time, we might be able to go through all of those and find the ones that seem well executed and relatively definitive. But it’s infeasible to try and address _all of them_, all at the same time. It’s too easy to bounce around and avoid direct questions and, even if we assume that everyone would behave well, it would still just be confusing. > > You introduced them. It’s your pick which to attack first. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-and-is-it-a-good-thing/999804/95 "2024-04-08T17:54:42Z")
And then… More avoidance. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-and-is-it-a-good-thing/999804/96 "2024-04-08T18:25:45Z")
So, then first study referenced in the first link and then we continue on chronologically? Second study in first link, third in first, first in second, etc.? I thought that you’d prefer to find some champion studies that you felt to be unimpeachable. That feels less tedious to me, but I’m easy. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-and-is-it-a-good-thing/999804/97 "2024-04-08T19:19:16Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I thought that you’d prefer to find some champion studies that you felt to be unimpeachable. That feels less tedious to me, but I’m easy. Well, the McKinsey & Company report is unimpeachable until someone does no? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-and-is-it-a-good-thing/999804/98 "2024-04-08T20:00:25Z")
Maybe we can take the discussion related to the studies [here](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/2213). So we can avoid getting the thread off track. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-and-is-it-a-good-thing/999804/99 "2024-04-08T20:16:34Z")
What a sorry position for a poster to take here. Lump people in a single category based upon your own biases, instead of what they post. Done with you. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-and-is-it-a-good-thing/999804/100 "2024-04-08T20:19:54Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > A lot of the DEI stuff reminds me of the cycles that business has gone through over the years as management fads. Totally [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-and-is-it-a-good-thing/999804.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-and-is-it-a-good-thing/999804.md?page=6)