# What is England? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 10, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-england/624756 "2012-06-10T20:46:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cayuga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Cayuga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cayuga)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-england/624756/1 "2012-06-10T20:46:40Z")
Or, for that matter, what are Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland? I know that the country is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I know that Great Britain is the island than contains England, Wales, and Scotland. But what are they? They can’t be countries because they’re part of a country. So what do you call them? ---
**Author:** ![ticker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@ticker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ticker)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-england/624756/2 "2012-06-10T20:52:28Z")
England is a country, but not a sovereign state. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-england/624756/3 "2012-06-10T20:53:06Z")
What is England? [This is England](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XMBreEuOpE) ---
**Author:** ![Cayuga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Cayuga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cayuga)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-england/624756/4 "2012-06-10T20:55:48Z")
> [@ticker](#): > > England is a country, but not a sovereign state. There’s a difference? ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-england/624756/5 "2012-06-10T20:56:51Z")
> [@Cayuga](#): > > There’s a difference? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-england/624756/6 "2012-06-10T20:57:27Z")
[Somewhat helpful Venn diagram](http://qntm.org/uk) “England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are political subdivisions of the UK” ---
**Author:** ![Alpha\_Twit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alpha_twit/32/265_2.png) [@Alpha\_Twit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alpha_Twit)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-england/624756/7 "2012-06-10T21:36:08Z")
Here is a popular youtube [clip](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10) that answers your question. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-england/624756/8 "2012-06-10T21:47:39Z")
Whatever it is, it’s neither madness nor Sparta. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-england/624756/9 "2012-06-10T21:52:06Z")
> [@Cayuga](#): > > There’s a difference? I think so. Puerto Rico is widely spoken of in terms of being a country, but it is not sovereign. Puerto Rico is considered to have a _culture_ distinct from the mainland US, but no country has a Puerto Rican embassy and there is no such thing as a Puerto Rican visa. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-england/624756/10 "2012-06-11T00:11:34Z")
They are KINGDOMS which are UNITED. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-england/624756/11 "2012-06-11T00:41:45Z")
> [@David42](#): > > They are KINGDOMS which are UNITED. England, Scotland and Great Britain used to be kingdoms, but are no longer. Wales and Northern Ireland never were kingdoms – though Ireland was one. These days, the United Kingdom is just one kingdom. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-england/624756/12 "2012-06-11T00:53:31Z")
The problem is that the word ‘country’ has multiple definitions, some of which stipulate sovereignty and some which don’t. If you insist that a country has to be sovereign, then England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, _etc._ are all parts of a single country named the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Contrariwise, if you don’t so insist, then England is indisputably a country which is not a sovereign state, but that _doesn’t_ go for all of the various distinguishable regions which together comprise the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. For example, the Isle of Man is _not_ a country and it is _not_ part of any of the countries I’ve named, except to the extent it is _also_ not sovereign and is effectively ruled by the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and if that makes no sense to you, well, governments don’t need to make sense, they just need to make laws. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-england/624756/13 "2012-06-11T02:02:29Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Wales and Northern Ireland never were kingdoms – though Ireland was one. These days, the United Kingdom is just one kingdom. That is only mostly true. Northern Ireland is more or less (mostly less, though borders shifted a lot and we’re not 100% clear on where they all were) on top of the territory of the early medieval kingdom of Ulster, though Northern Ireland isn’t really a successor state except in the most roundabout way possible. There were a couple of individuals, e.g. Hywel Dda, who claimed kingship over Wales, during which time it was by definition a kingdom. But in the couple of centuries before conquest and ever since, Wales is a principality rather than a kingdom. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-england/624756/14 "2012-06-11T04:30:13Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > England, Scotland and Great Britain used to be kingdoms, but are no longer. Wales and Northern Ireland never were kingdoms – though Ireland was one. These days, the United Kingdom is just one kingdom. Wales certainly was a kingdom. It wasn’t by the time the U.K. was formed. > **[King of Wales](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Wales)** > > Latin versions of "King of Wales" (Welsh: Brenin Cymru) were titles used on a handful of occasions in the Middle Ages. They were very rarely claimed or applied by contemporaries, because Wales, much like Ireland, usually had neither the political unity nor the sovereignty of other contemporary European kingdoms such as England and Scotland. While many early rulers of areas within Wales used the title of "King", they were not, and did not claim to be, rulers of all Wales. > Geoffrey of Monmouth'... Now, northern Ireland, I had thought that it only became politically subdivided from the rest of IReland because of English rule. I would have thought that in the time of Irish Kings it would have been all of Ireland. Can you prove what you say and fight my ignorance? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-england/624756/15 "2012-06-11T04:30:29Z")
Ulster is one of the four (or five, depending on how you count Dublin) provinces of Ireland, and consists of nine counties. Six of those nine counties collectively form Northern Ireland, which is part of the United Kingdom, while the remaining three are part of the Republic of Ireland. Meanwhile, there are those who consider all four provinces of Ireland (the entire island) to comprise a single country, in the same sense that England can be considered a country, regardless of the fact that that country is divided between two sovereign nations. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-england/624756/16 "2012-06-11T05:01:13Z")
Staff Report by Dex: [What’s the difference between the United Kingdom, Great Britain, and England?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1706/whats-the-difference-between-the-united-kingdom-great-britain-and-england) ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-england/624756/17 "2012-06-11T08:07:20Z")
A commonly used phrase for them is [constituent country.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constituent_country) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-england/624756/18 "2012-06-11T09:05:36Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Wales certainly was a kingdom. Isn’t it currently a principality? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-england/624756/19 "2012-06-11T10:51:44Z")
In international law and relations, Scotland, and England are [sub national entities](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-national_entity) meaning they are the sub divisions of a nation state. Now the difference between a nation state and a sub national entity and the various attributes are not exactly clear and have varied over time, but a nation state has by modern acceptance _de jure_ exclusivity over the right to employ lethal force, the exclusive power to conduct foreign relations and have ultimate control over the movement of goods, persons and services from without its borders. The term nation state often overlaps with country but the two are NOT synonymous. In the UK’s case, the nation state is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. This is a nation state which exits on the Island of Great Britain and also controls about a fifth of the territory of the Island of Ireland. The formation of this nation state began in 1707, when the previously independent kingdoms of England (which included due to earlier conquest; Wales) and Scotland joined together to form the Kingdom of Great Britain which in 1800 formed with the Kingdom of Ireland, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland which lost in 1922 most of the territory of the former Kingdom of Ireland and was in 1927 renamed as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and \*Northern \*Ireland. Due to the historical accident of being formed by two erstwhile independent nation states, the primary sub divisions of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland are often called countries or “Home Nations”. However, it is the UK embassy and the UK Government which deals with foreign relations and trade and its the UK Armed forces not the English Army or the Scottish Navy or the Welsh Airforce or the Northern Irish Marines. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-england/624756/20 "2012-06-11T14:25:15Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Isn’t it currently a principality? Yes. Its “prince” is regularly appointed by the heir to the thrones of Scotland and England, now conveniently combined as the King or Queen of the United Kingdom. The last hereditary prince was beheaded by the forces of Edward I in 1282. Welsh Wikipedia has a nice list of the native princes of Wales, all six of them. For the most part, the medieval rulers of Wales were “kings” of postage-stamp-sized kingdoms like Seisyllwg or Powys Wenwynwyn. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-england/624756.md?page=2)