# What is existentialism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 11, 2016, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-existentialism/762412 "2016-08-11T04:56:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-existentialism/762412/21 "2016-08-11T19:56:31Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > To be honest it seems too much like nihilism. No. If anything, existentialism is the _cure_ for nihilism. The universe is meaningless, so make your own meaning. > [@](#): > > Also the authenticity bit seems like a lie to me. We never see the world as it is, science makes that clear. “Seeing the world as it is” isn’t a statement about perception or phenomenology, it’s a statement about teleology. You really can’t answer any claim made by existentialism with “But…Science!”. They’re not remotely looking at the same questions. If anything, science adds weight to existentialism. > [@](#): > > We also don’t “become” who we are as humans so much as we are made by everything around us, we have little choice in the matter. I disagree. Strongly. I’m not _discounting_ outside influences, they are very much a big factor in becoming, but you’re nearly completely discounting any internal life to us. And that’s self-evidently not true to me. I’m assuming the same is true of everyone. P-zombies don’t exist. > [@](#): > > Psychology seems to make that pretty clear. I don’t think psychology postulates that we are pure automatons only driven by outside influences. At least, not that I know of. > [@](#): > > In that sense then existentialism becomes a comforting lie. Leaving aside the epistemology of it all - you think existentialism is _comforting_? The philosophy where the words _angst_, _anguish_, _dread_, _anxiety_, _despair_ and _crisis_ are commonplace? That notes the _absurdity_ of the search for meaning? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-existentialism/762412/22 "2016-08-11T20:07:55Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Subjective meaning is the same as there being no meaning. Meaning only exists if it’s universal. That’s, if you’ll pardon the technical term, bullshit. You’re confusing teleology with semantics. When existentialism says “life is inherently meaningless”, it is in the former sense, not the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-existentialism/762412/23 "2016-08-11T20:46:57Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > You seem to have blown past my point. I said there is nothing saying we should do such things. As for creating meaning, that’s not really true. Meaning is made for us these days. Most of what has meaning is just what we take that has been passed to us. If we were to question it then it would fall apart. > > Subjective meaning is the same as there being no meaning. Meaning only exists if it’s universal. As long as someone finds something to have no meaning, then it will have no meaning no matter how much you try to give it one. Meaning is worthless without others to acknowledge the meaning of said thing. > > And humans are for the most part a blank slate. Cooperation has to be learned and the bit about being social animals isn’t really true. Those aspects of the brain have to be triggered before they happen. Social behavior isn’t instinct, it’s learned. Even the matter of what to do with empathy must be learned (if not empathy itself). Even the desire to live is a drive rather than an instinct (which is why people can overcome it). The bit about desiring to form communities is also learned, it’s not automatic.[Edge.org](https://www.edge.org/response-detail/25395) > > Everything we have today is essentially learned through history. Hence it is common things we can agree on. Language is supportive of my “universal” meaning. If language were entirely subjective then it would be worthless. You couldn’t communicate anything to people. Gotta respectfully disagree with you on this. You’re stating things have no meaning unless that meaning is universal. However, I believe we all create our own mythos, some of which we share, and some of which is private. Not only that, but we may borrow from many different world views in creating our own. As well, if a person chooses to live in isolation in a cabin on a mountain, with no contact with others, can you honestly say that the ideas and values governing the person’s life have no meaning, simply by virtue of the fact that there is no one around to share those ideas and values with? I must disagree with your assertion that subjective meaning is the same as having no meaning. Some meanings are certainly not popular enough to be recorded in history books, but they are meanings nonetheless. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-existentialism/762412/24 "2016-08-11T20:48:05Z")
> [@quiltguy](#): > > I seem to remember a Monty Python skit about several English housewives seeking out Sartre to explain himself and his philosophy. It was all over in seconds, once they actually located him. How difficult CAN it be? 😉 Or put another way, the answer is 42. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-existentialism/762412/25 "2016-08-11T20:57:26Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No. If anything, existentialism is the _cure_ for nihilism. The universe is meaningless, so make your own meaning. > “Seeing the world as it is” isn’t a statement about perception or phenomenology, it’s a statement about teleology. > > You really can’t answer any claim made by existentialism with “But…Science!”. They’re not remotely looking at the same questions. If anything, science adds weight to existentialism. > I disagree. Strongly. I’m not _discounting_ outside influences, they are very much a big factor in becoming, but you’re nearly completely discounting any internal life to us. And that’s self-evidently not true to me. I’m assuming the same is true of everyone. P-zombies don’t exist. > I don’t think psychology postulates that we are pure automatons only driven by outside influences. At least, not that I know of.Leaving aside the epistemology of it all - you think existentialism is _comforting_? The philosophy where the words _angst_, _anguish_, _dread_, _anxiety_, _despair_ and _crisis_ are commonplace? That notes the _absurdity_ of the search for meaning? It is a comforting lie, because the alternative is having no framework. And yes humans are entirely made up of everything around them. Any idea that we make ourselves just creates the illusion of free will. The thing is that such influences are subtle so you don’t notice them. You just believe you have choice. The so called internal world is just an amalgam of our past influences. Existentialism from what I have gathered thus far assumes humans have freedom of choice (which they don’t). So it inherently falls flat trying to create an answer to how to live. You have no choice where you are born, who raises you, or what ideas you are first given. A lot of what affects us isn’t by our choice, it’s merely the illusion of choice. Subconsciously your mind is already made up. Psychology does in fact prove that choice is more of an illusion than anything you have control over. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-existentialism/762412/26 "2016-08-11T20:59:56Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Gotta respectfully disagree with you on this. You’re stating things have no meaning unless that meaning is universal. However, I believe we all create our own mythos, some of which we share, and some of which is private. Not only that, but we may borrow from many different world views in creating our own. As well, if a person chooses to live in isolation in a cabin on a mountain, with no contact with others, can you honestly say that the ideas and values governing the person’s life have no meaning, simply by virtue of the fact that there is no one around to share those ideas and values with? I must disagree with your assertion that subjective meaning is the same as having no meaning. Some meanings are certainly not popular enough to be recorded in history books, but they are meanings nonetheless. > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk If there is no one around the his ideas and values have no worth. Worth is based on the judgments of others, which is why the more widely held something is (getting closer to universal) the more value it has. Meaning and value to just one is the same as nothing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-existentialism/762412/27 "2016-08-11T21:09:05Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > To be honest it seems too much like nihilism. Also the authenticity bit seems like a lie to me. We never see the world as it is, science makes that clear. You’re arguing that we can clearly see that we can’t clearly see the world as it is? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-existentialism/762412/28 "2016-08-11T21:16:38Z")
Since the OP is interested not merely in the definition of existentialism, but debating it, let’s move this to Great Debates. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-existentialism/762412/29 "2016-08-11T21:26:03Z")
You’ve certainly gone from “What is existentialism?” to “Here’s everything I think is wrong about existentialism” rather quickly. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-existentialism/762412/30 "2016-08-11T21:29:14Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > If there is no one around the his ideas and values have no worth. Worth is based on the judgments of others, which is why the more widely held something is (getting closer to universal) the more value it has. Meaning and value to just one is the same as nothing. So nothing has meaning or value on a deserted island? Water, shelter, food have no meaning or value? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-existentialism/762412/31 "2016-08-11T21:41:52Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > If there is no one around the his ideas and values have no worth. Worth is based on the judgments of others, which is why the more widely held something is (getting closer to universal) the more value it has. Meaning and value to just one is the same as nothing. See, you’re just sort of _asserting_ that ideas and values have no worth if no one else is around; you’re just _saying_ that meaning and value to one is the same as nothing. And unless I missed something, that’s just, like, your _opinion,_ man. Where did you find this information? Was it revealed to you by a sage, or an angel? Did it come to you in a dream? Is it inscribed as letters of living lightning? ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-existentialism/762412/32 "2016-08-11T22:04:49Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > See, you’re just sort of _asserting_ that ideas and values have no worth if no one else is around; you’re just _saying_ that meaning and value to one is the same as nothing. > > And unless I missed something, that’s just, like, your _opinion,_ man. > > Where did you find this information? Was it revealed to you by a sage, or an angel? Did it come to you in a dream? Is it inscribed as letters of living lightning? $10 says some crank site with the words “forbidden” and/or “Truth” in the url. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-existentialism/762412/33 "2016-08-11T22:28:56Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > What is existentialism? Does it even matter? Why should you care? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-existentialism/762412/34 "2016-08-12T00:51:43Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > If there is no one around the his ideas and values have no worth. “Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching- even when doing the wrong thing is legal.” – Aldo Leopold (1887-1948) ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-existentialism/762412/35 "2016-08-12T02:00:56Z")
Yes, of course life is meaningless. What meaning does it have? God gave it meaning? Obvious nonsense, even if God existed how could he give our lives meaning? I mean, suppose God exists, and he looked at Adam and Eve and proclaimed that the meaning of their lives was to be fruitful and multiply and whatever. How would that make their lives meaningful? Oh, they’re pleasing God. So the fuck what? Who cares whether you please God? I mean, God would, but who died and made him boss? Just because God tells you that serving him is what gives your life meaning, that doesn’t make it true, even if God can manipulate the objective ethical fabric of the universe to make it true. It’s only true because he made it true. OK, so pleasing God isn’t good in and of itself, so we should please God because we’d be better off if we pleased God? He’ll reward us if we please him, and punish us if we don’t? Well, again, who made him boss? It’s only meaningful if we as human beings want to avoid the pain of God’s punishments and want to experience the joys of God’s rewards. And why do we want that? Because God made us that way. It’s all meaningless. Spending an eternity in Heavenly bliss is meaningless. Spending an eternity suffering in Hell is meaningless. Except by human values. Don’t get me wrong, if I really beleived God would punish me I’d do what I could to avoid that punishment, but that’s only because I’m the sort of being that doesn’t like pain. The pain itself would be bad, but it wouldn’t mean anything. It’s all meaningless. So then nihilism and despair? No, unless you want to despair, I guess. What’s the point of despair? You found out human life is meaningless and the universe is pointless, and so you despair? If it really is true that your life has no meaning, then your despair has no meaning. Only despair if you want to. You don’t have to, unless you somehow thing that you’re obligated to despair. But you aren’t, because, get this, you aren’t obligated to do anything, not even take another breath. The only thing is, you’re a tiny little creature in a great big universe. You can do anything you want, but you can’t control the consequences of your actions. Hurt other people and they’ll get angry and hurt you back. Be an unreasonable jerk and people will hate you. Yes, their hatred is meaningless, but the fact is that you’re a human being. And if you’re a normal human and not a sociopath you won’t enjoy life without the love and companionship of other human beings. If you don’t care about enjoying your life then do what you want and die miserable and alone, and it won’t mean a thing. Or you could try being nice to people for a change, and see what happens. Not that you’ll rack up points in heaven or karma points, because those things don’t exist. What exists is cause and effect. If you believe that you’re an automaton without free will who can only hurt other people, and you act on that belief, then you’ve made yourself miserable for no reason. Even if you really are an automaton, so what? Even if you aren’t really “choosing” not to be an asshole, what’s the point of being an asshole? Because the other automatons around you aren’t going to act as if you didn’t have a choice, they’re going to react to what you do, and so you better be prepared for that. Life is meaningless. The meaninglessness of life is meaningless. Do whatever you want, but if you’re consistently an asshole you’re going to suffer in this life. And your suffering won’t mean a thing to anyone except you, and maybe not even then. So what? Either enjoy life or don’t but whining that other people are enjoying life when they should be suffering from existential angst is silly. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-existentialism/762412/36 "2016-08-12T02:11:45Z")
So why did you take the trouble to type all of that? ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-existentialism/762412/37 "2016-08-12T02:52:18Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Yes, of course life is meaningless. What meaning does it have? God gave it meaning? Obvious nonsense, even if God existed how could he give our lives meaning? I mean, suppose God exists, and he looked at Adam and Eve and proclaimed that the meaning of their lives was to be fruitful and multiply and whatever. > > How would that make their lives meaningful? Oh, they’re pleasing God. So the fuck what? Who cares whether you please God? I mean, God would, but who died and made him boss? Just because God tells you that serving him is what gives your life meaning, that doesn’t make it true, even if God can manipulate the objective ethical fabric of the universe to make it true. It’s only true because he made it true. OK, so pleasing God isn’t good in and of itself, so we should please God because we’d be better off if we pleased God? He’ll reward us if we please him, and punish us if we don’t? > > Well, again, who made him boss? It’s only meaningful if we as human beings want to avoid the pain of God’s punishments and want to experience the joys of God’s rewards. And why do we want that? Because God made us that way. > > It’s all meaningless. Spending an eternity in Heavenly bliss is meaningless. Spending an eternity suffering in Hell is meaningless. Except by human values. Don’t get me wrong, if I really beleived God would punish me I’d do what I could to avoid that punishment, but that’s only because I’m the sort of being that doesn’t like pain. The pain itself would be bad, but it wouldn’t mean anything. > > It’s all meaningless. So then nihilism and despair? No, unless you want to despair, I guess. What’s the point of despair? You found out human life is meaningless and the universe is pointless, and so you despair? If it really is true that your life has no meaning, then your despair has no meaning. Only despair if you want to. You don’t have to, unless you somehow thing that you’re obligated to despair. But you aren’t, because, get this, you aren’t obligated to do anything, not even take another breath. > > The only thing is, you’re a tiny little creature in a great big universe. You can do anything you want, but you can’t control the consequences of your actions. Hurt other people and they’ll get angry and hurt you back. Be an unreasonable jerk and people will hate you. Yes, their hatred is meaningless, but the fact is that you’re a human being. And if you’re a normal human and not a sociopath you won’t enjoy life without the love and companionship of other human beings. If you don’t care about enjoying your life then do what you want and die miserable and alone, and it won’t mean a thing. > > Or you could try being nice to people for a change, and see what happens. Not that you’ll rack up points in heaven or karma points, because those things don’t exist. What exists is cause and effect. If you believe that you’re an automaton without free will who can only hurt other people, and you act on that belief, then you’ve made yourself miserable for no reason. Even if you really are an automaton, so what? Even if you aren’t really “choosing” not to be an asshole, what’s the point of being an asshole? Because the other automatons around you aren’t going to act as if you didn’t have a choice, they’re going to react to what you do, and so you better be prepared for that. > > Life is meaningless. The meaninglessness of life is meaningless. Do whatever you want, but if you’re consistently an asshole you’re going to suffer in this life. And your suffering won’t mean a thing to anyone except you, and maybe not even then. So what? Either enjoy life or don’t but whining that other people are enjoying life when they should be suffering from existential angst is silly. So how then are you defining “meaning” exactly? Because you keep using that word, but I don’t think it means what you think it means. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-existentialism/762412/38 "2016-08-12T03:09:21Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > “Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching- even when doing the wrong thing is legal.” > > – Aldo Leopold (1887-1948) So what is the right thing? ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-existentialism/762412/39 "2016-08-12T03:18:15Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > So what is the right thing? Something Republicans would approve of, naturally. Right? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-existentialism/762412/40 "2016-08-12T04:45:03Z")
Does it bother anyone else that philosophical movements are products of their environment? I understand why it happens that way but if it does so, without exception, can any new philosophy ever hope to improve on explaining the nature of the human experience? New pop songs come out every year, have fans and change music and culture forever, but it’s not like everyone is attempting to distill the ‘perfect’ auditory experience. I feel the same about economic theory. In these fields is progress happening? If it is how can it be measured? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-existentialism/762412.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-existentialism/762412.md?page=3)