# What is gender? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 10, 2017, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-gender/793222 "2017-08-10T04:38:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-gender/793222/41 "2017-08-13T02:47:56Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’d love to do some thinking. Now explain to me how I know I’m male or female. There’s got to be objective fact in there somewhere. There is evidence from fMRI and MRI studies, as well as from the autopsy studies, of differences in the brains of transgender persons. These differences appear to show similarities between the brains of cisgender individuals of the chromosomal sex that matches the gender identity of the transgender person. In short, transgender women have brain function seen under fMRI and MRI that is different than that of cisgender men, and appears to be much closer to that of cisgender women. The same thing (in reverse) is seen with transgender men. Because this is evolving research there is no way to definitively say “this MRI says this person is female/male/other gender.” Maybe someday, but given the continuum of gender identity which is lived by persons I doubt it can ever be done with total certainty. Barring invasive testing and scans, we trust most people to have an understanding of their own gender identity. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-gender/793222/42 "2017-08-13T07:29:19Z")
Gender has two meanings at this point, as far as I can tell. I still has its traditional social role definition. And that is one where we’re trying to break down barriers, and stop pretending that women must be this stereotype and men must be this one. But there’s also an internal sense of gender. Not everyone has it, and a lot of people who have it find it aligns with the gender society assigns them, and thus don’t notice it. But some people have an internal gender that is different from the gender society is assigning them. And this causes a ton of distress. Being allowed to present as the gender they identify as often aids in this distress. This issue closely overlaps with people who have an internal gender that is at odds with their sex. Their brains are actually different, and the parts of their body like their hormones that push them one way cause them a lot of distress. Getting the right hormones will often prevent tons of psychological problems in these individuals. At least, that’s how I understand it. I’m an ally, and one who sits from afar, not knowing any (out) trans folk in my non-Internet life. It seems that a lot of problems arise because some people think gender is entirely external and assigned by society, but it’s not that simple. But neither is it as simple as your internal gender is equivalent to your sex–the external physical characteristics or genetic sex (XX or XY or other). ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-gender/793222/43 "2017-08-13T07:47:37Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Why in the world would you want to disagree with someone else’s “opinion” of their gender? That sounds rude at best, as if you believe that you know what is in their head and heart better than they do. Well yes, that would be dickish of me, but let’s be clear, this is a head and heart issue, not an issue of objective fact. Or at least, no one has shown me that gender identity is based on anything other than one’s subjective feelings. If that’s really all that’s going on, I can get behind that. But I was under the impression that there was something scientific going on, that people’s “real” gender could be different from the one they were assigned at birth. As a matter of objective fact. If I misunderstood, then no problem. People are entitled to be who they regard themselves as, and that goes beyond gender and into all aspects of identity. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-gender/793222/44 "2017-08-13T07:49:06Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > There is evidence from fMRI and MRI studies, as well as from the autopsy studies, of differences in the brains of transgender persons. These differences appear to show similarities between the brains of cisgender individuals of the chromosomal sex that matches the gender identity of the transgender person. > > In short, transgender women have brain function seen under fMRI and MRI that is different than that of cisgender men, and appears to be much closer to that of cisgender women. The same thing (in reverse) is seen with transgender men. Because this is evolving research there is no way to definitively say “this MRI says this person is female/male/other gender.” Maybe someday, but given the continuum of gender identity which is lived by persons I doubt it can ever be done with total certainty. > > Barring invasive testing and scans, we trust most people to have an understanding of their own gender identity. Okay, so speaking scientifically, in what ways do womens brains function differently from mens? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-gender/793222/45 "2017-08-13T14:08:13Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Okay, so speaking scientifically, in what ways do womens brains function differently from mens? There are observed differences in structure and electrical activity. Most but not all studies reveal this. The studies do not “prove” that there is a “female brain” or a “male brain,” but that there are differences in the organization of electrical impulses. Wait, I thought you did research on this. It was in your OP. So what’s the deal? Here, I’ll help. This is 4 years old and the evidence has grown stronger since then. [http://transascity.org/the-transgender-brain/](http://transascity.org/the-transgender-brain/) > [@](#): > > XY karyotype men have about twice the volume and twice the number of neurons as XX karyotype women in two regions of the brain, called the BSTc and INAH3 regions. (Bao, Kruijver) An early study of cadaver brains found that transwomen have roughly the same numbers of neurons in these areas as XX women (Zhou), and this has been backed up by further non-invasive imaging studies. (Bao, Kruijver) A single transman who was tested was found to have an XY male number of neurons.(Bao, Kruijver) However, it should be noted that in the imaging study, the differences from person to person were somewhat wide-ranging, and the sample sizes were very small. > > MRI data from 24 transwomen who had not started hormone treatment revealed that while their overall grey matter appeared similar to that of XY karyotype males, they possessed a significantly larger amount of grey matter in the right putamen. In fact, the grey matter structure of the transwomen was much closer to those seen in XX karyotype female subjects. In short, while the brains of the transwomen resembled XY male brains in terms of grey matter, in one specific region their brains appeared to be “feminized.” (Luders) > > A study of the white matter in the brains of 18 transmen, 24 XY karyotype males, and 19 XX karyotype females using diffusion tensor imaging (DTI) showed that the white matter structure of transmen was much closer to that of XY males than XX females. In fact, the white matter of their brain differed from the XY males only in a single region of the brain, whereas they differed from the XX women in three regions of the brain. None of the transmen had received hormone treatment at the time of the study. (Rametti, 2011) A follow-up study by the same researchers found that after the transmen had received hormone treatment, significant changes occurred in their brains, making them appear even more masculinized in certain regions which are associated with XY males. (Rametti, 2012) > > A positron emission tomography (PET) study showed that smelling androgens (male pheromones) caused transwomen to respond in the hypothalamus region of their brain in a manner similar to XX karyotype women. However, smelling estrogen-based pheromones also caused them to respond in the hypothalamus region in a manner similar to XY karyotype men. This combination of results suggests that transwomen occupy an “intermediate position with predominantly female features” in the way the hypothalamus reacted. (Berglund) > > An MRI study of 22 transwomen and 28 transmen examined the shape of the corpus callosum in the brain at a specific cross-sectional plane, and compared this shape with that observed in 211 XY karyotype males and 211 XX karyotype females. Their results demonstrated that not only could the sex of the patient be determined with 74% accuracy from the MRI picture, but the shapes of the brains in the transsexuals strongly reflected their gender, and not their biological sex. (Yokota) > > A recent study examined cortical thickness in the brain between 29 XY karyotype males, 23 XX karyotype females, 24 transmen, and 18 transwomen. None of the transsexual subjects had received any hormone treatment prior to the study. Using an MRI, the researchers found that the transwomen had more cortical thickness than the XY males in three regions of the brain. The transmen showed evidence of masculinization of their grey matter. In all transsexuals studied, the key differences from their biological sex were found in the right hemisphere. (Zubiaurre) > > Testing of a chemical produced in our bodies called “brain-derived neurotropic factor” (BDNF) in 45 transwomen found that when they were compared with 66 XY karyotype male control subjects, the transwomen had significantly lower levels of BDNF. However, this could be a result of higher stress levels and higher emotional trauma levels in the transsexual sampling. It should also be noted that no women control subjects were compared in this study. (Fontanari) > > Genetic testing of 112 transwomen and 258 XY karyotype male control subjects found that the transwomen had significant differences in androgen receptor genes. The result of this difference could lead to less effective testosterone signaling, meaning that there would be significantly less “masculinization” of the brain in the womb. This would result in a brain which was much more feminized, leading to a female gender identity. (Hare) > > An admittedly small study of 9 post-operative transwomen showed their brain activation was similar to women when viewing pictures showing erotic male images. (Oh) However, this study doesn’t so much address the root cause of the transsexuality as it shows that their sexual attraction towards men led to the same brain reaction as seen in heterosexual women. Note that a few studies showing little or no difference are also presented on that page. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-gender/793222/46 "2017-08-13T14:16:43Z")
THat doesn’t tell me how men and women behave differently or have different mental attributes as a result of differing brain chemistry. If tests showed that my brain was more similar to a female’s than a male’s, would that mean that I am “truly” female? What does it mean to be a man? What does it mean to be a woman? In order to believe you are the opposite of your biology, you must have some pretty firm opinions on that. Why not state them? ---
**Author:** ![JohnnyMac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@JohnnyMac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnyMac)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-gender/793222/47 "2017-08-13T15:08:55Z")
ISTM that you have the idea that transfolks have some consious, thought out and defined idea of gender, and after cataloguing their own traits or characteristics hold them up for comparison against it. I can’t speak for anyone else, but for me this is the farthest thing from the truth. I don’t need to have any firm opinion on what it “means” to be any particular gender. Simply put, when I reached puberty I began to feel intense depersonalisation: this body was not mine. This was extreme to the point of the whole world seeming unreal, and my experiencing myself as floating directly behind my head rather than existing in my body, in the world. I never suffered any traumatic experiences as a child that might make me feel this way. As teens do, I played about with different philosophies, worldviews - and identities. And when I began to view myself as male (transmasc, these days, I guess), these feelings lifted a great deal. They lifted further when I began taking testosterone, and more still with surgery. Now here I am, almost fifteen years later, very happy with the changes I’ve brought to my body, and feeling decidedly present within it. I have no easy answer to what any particular gender “is”. I expect if my brain were scanned on autopsy its structure would more closely align with the cismale scans than cisfemale. But I in no way need to know what mental attributes or behaviours that structure might give rise to, to be firm in my own identity. Sent from my SM-A300FU using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-gender/793222/48 "2017-08-13T15:31:20Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > THat doesn’t tell me how men and women behave differently or have different mental attributes as a result of differing brain chemistry. If tests showed that my brain was more similar to a female’s than a male’s, would that mean that I am “truly” female? A test would not show you that your brain was more similar to a female’s than a male’s. It could show you that your brain was more similar to _the average_ female’s brain than it is to the _average_ male’s brain, or it could show you that your brain was more similar to _one specific_ female’s brain (Theresa’s, let’s say) than to _one specific_ male’s brain (Tony’s brain). > [@](#): > > What does it mean to be a man? What does it mean to be a woman? In order to believe you are the opposite of your biology, you must have some pretty firm opinions on that. Why not state them? I’m not **Una** (but am answering anyway), and like most people I also have not had a physiological gender-test of my brain. Relying on things like behavior, priorities, values, personality, nuances, and so on, it appears to me, just as it has appeared to a lot of people in my life over the years (i.e. folks have said so), that I resemble women in general more than I resemble men in general. I have no idea whether that difference manifests in a measurable way at the brain level, nor do I care. I am a part of the minority of males who are more like women than men (again, based on generalizations). What does it mean to say I “am a woman” instead of saying I am “like a woman”? Identity. That sense of “this is who I am, these are the people with whom I am part of a meaningful ‘us’”, the recognition of identity-in-common. And I would turn the question on its head and ask it back at you (and other people): What does it mean to think of yourself as having an identity in common with other people who have the same biology? In what ways (if any) does the commonality of being males (or females) together link up with other common overlaps of experience and personality and other attributes to create that sense of “I am a man” or “I am a woman”? How would do you think it would be for you if the _only_ thing you had in common with them and less so with the opposite sex was the physiological equipment? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-gender/793222/49 "2017-08-13T16:10:31Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > THat doesn’t tell me how men and women behave differently or have different mental attributes as a result of differing brain chemistry. If tests showed that my brain was more similar to a female’s than a male’s, would that mean that I am “truly” female? Why don’t you “research” the tech papers which are cited at the link and do some legwork. Under that link is discussed the importance of chemical influence. Also, you can visit your local research library or university and ask the friendly librarians there for assistance. > [@](#): > > In order to believe you are the opposite of your biology, It has nothing to do with being “opposite” of biology, because biology is on a very subtle spectrum. Most people are not 100% male or female in phenotype or biology, they are mostly such. Everyone has different responses to prenatal and postnatal hormone influence. Mostly slight, sometimes profound. Just as everyone has gender identity on a spectrum. This spectrum has very strong groupings on one side and the other, but there is a spectrum in between. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-gender/793222/50 "2017-08-13T18:27:17Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Gender is a little tweeting bird chirping in a meadow. > Gender is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell BAD. Illogical! Norman, co-ordinate! ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2017, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-gender/793222/51 "2017-08-13T22:06:35Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > THat doesn’t tell me how men and women behave differently or have different mental attributes as a result of differing brain chemistry. If tests showed that my brain was more similar to a female’s than a male’s, would that mean that I am “truly” female? > > What does it mean to be a man? What does it mean to be a woman? In order to believe you are the opposite of your biology, you must have some pretty firm opinions on that. Why not state them? Nor will it. Because what parts of your brain light up isn’t directly correlated to specific behavior. Well, yes it does…and no it doesn’t. Addicts brains light up in different ways than non-addicts - but there is a lot of variation in each group, and no set of radio buttons that says “addict” or “non-addict” But it isn’t like “if your brain lights up like this, you’ll want to go shoe shopping and if it lights up like that, you’ll want to go skeet shooting” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-gender/793222.md?page=2)