# What is going on in our schools? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 31, 2003, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-in-our-schools/151977 "2003-01-31T22:46:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-in-our-schools/151977/101 "2003-02-07T00:57:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rilchiam \* > The separation of church and state prevents that. > \*\* God damn it **Rilchiam**! If you don’t know the facts, quit arguing! Vouchers most certainly DO apply towards religous schools! And my comment about stadium taxes IS relevant! Private schools are private corporations. Giving them tax money is no different than giving tax money to ANY other corporation be it a sports team or KMart! It’s wrong! Getting to go to a private school is not a right. And if ones parents can’t afford it, tough shit! All the bleeding heart liberal programs in the world aren’t going to make life fair, but will tax us out of existance! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-in-our-schools/151977/102 "2003-02-07T01:13:40Z")
She already said she doesn’t agree with vouchers. And I believe vouchers are a RIGHT WING issues? ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-in-our-schools/151977/103 "2003-02-07T01:26:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*She already said she doesn’t agree with vouchers. > > And I believe vouchers are a RIGHT WING issues? \*\* You’re right on both accounts. But her basic position, though statedly opposed to vouchers, is still to the left. This “aww. Give the poor kids a chance” piss & moan is as liberal as any I’ve heard today. The Right Wing is dead wrong on this issue, and I think the only reason they’re for it is to piss off the teachers union. While many union teachers are a bunch of underworked, overpaid, whinny hacks, I join them in opposition to vouchers, if not for the same reasons they’re against them. [QUOTE] _Originally posted by pkbites_ **While many union teachers are a bunch of underworked, overpaid, whinny hacks** 😃 Oh God. Am I going to get my ass kicked over saying that!😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-in-our-schools/151977/104 "2003-02-07T03:29:08Z")
Thank you, **Guin**. I’ll not address the subject of vouchers again. I will, however, pose my principal question for the third time: **pkbites** , what defines a kid as “good” or “bad”? ---
**Author:** ![JamesCarroll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@JamesCarroll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JamesCarroll)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-in-our-schools/151977/105 "2003-02-07T23:00:32Z")
And this is all the more reason for standadized testing. If there are stupid students we shouldn’t be promoting them. If there are bad teachers we shouldn’t be giving them a paycheck. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-in-our-schools/151977/106 "2003-02-07T23:48:34Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by pkbites \* \*\*Of course I don’t want them in school with trouble makers. How bad kids are getting in via vouchers is beyond me! …some of the bad kids from the public schools are getting in. … …Now I’ve noticed that this private school has a huge disipline problem.\*\* [QUOTE] What part of “bad kids” and “disipline problem” don’t you understand? Haven’t you ever heard of trouble makers? Kids who break the rules, cause problems? :smack: Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh! I get it! You’re trying to get me to say something racist or disparaging towards a particular group! Nice try. Won’t work. Don’t try it again! Wasn’t what I was taking about!! ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-in-our-schools/151977/107 "2003-02-08T00:08:41Z")
What **actions** , specifically, constitute a “discipline problem”? What **behavior** , specifically, characterizes a “bad kid”? What rules do they break? I said nothing about race or groups. :dubious: Can you not separate those things from behavior? I seem to have a lot more control here than you do, **pkbites**. I am prepared to wait for your answer until hell freezes over. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-in-our-schools/151977/108 "2003-02-08T00:12:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rilchiam \* > **What actions, specifically, constitute a “discipline problem”? What behavior, specifically, characterizes a “bad kid”? What rules do they break?** Fighting, theft, disrupting class. These things were quite not as prevelant prior to the school my kids are in started accepting vouchers. The dean himself told me this. Now, I don’t really like him, but I doubt he’s telling b.s… ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-in-our-schools/151977/109 "2003-02-08T01:04:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pkbites \* > \*\*Fighting, theft, disrupting class. These things were quite not as prevelant prior to the school my kids are in started accepting vouchers. The dean himself told me this. Now, I don’t really like him, but I doubt he’s telling b.s… \*\* Well, all right then. **Now** I see your point. Why didn’t you just say that right up front. Truce? ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-in-our-schools/151977/110 "2003-02-08T02:20:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JamesCarroll \* > \*\*And this is all the more reason for standadized testing. If there are stupid students we shouldn’t be promoting them. If there are bad teachers we shouldn’t be giving them a paycheck. \*\* Lemme tell you a little secret about standardized testing. They don’t test your knowledge. They test your ability to take a test. Absolutely irrelevant to any kind of real education at all. Unless by real education you mean memorizing facts and regurgitating them onto a bubble sheet. ---
**Author:** ![Blackeyes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f6c823/32.png) [@Blackeyes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackeyes)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-in-our-schools/151977/111 "2003-02-08T23:29:23Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Dragon Ash_ > One brilliant policy change last year - I heard that it passed, but don’t know the exact details: Pi is to be rounded to 3. To make calculations easier. Not 22/7. Not 3.14, even. 3 . I don’t think they should have dumbed things down; I was hoping they would simply work at letting kids have more choices in what they learned. I hear Alabama did the same thing not too long ago… 😉 > [@](#): > > _Orignally posted by Neurotik_ > Another good way is the game Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego. Man, I used to spend hours leafing through the World Almanac looking up flags, capitals, governments, etc. Good times. . Aw man, I remember that stuff. I never played _WITW_, but we had the USA version and I played that all the time. **All the time** , and I mean it. I even read most of the book that came with the game. That was some neat stuff for an eight year old (or however old I was at the time). I wasn’t too great a kid when I was in Kindergarden through first grade. I was perdy slow, I’d call it. Never read, didn’t learn how to tie my own shoes until first grade. Didn’t want to do that or learn to write when I could get teacher or mom to do it for me. Dog with a **K**? C’mon! :smack: One day in first grade I went to a friend’s birthday party at the sorta-local roller skating rink, and I broke my arm. Fractured it pretty good, I still don’t have full range-of-motion in my left wrist. Because it happened in April and it was such a bad break I had a cast on through most of the summer. That was the first summer I had a real pool in our house, too. And that sucked at the time. But you know what? My mom bought me some _Goosebumps_ books - because I was that sort of kid - and I read all summer. Shit, I read so much that summer I was tested in second grade and put in the gifted program. A pretty big improvement from the dumb-as-a-rock the year before. And I’ll never forget TV, the most important educator in my life. And that’s a fact. When you’re 8-11 years old and you see tanks and bazookas on TV -it doesn’t matter shit if it’s on the nefariously named “_History_ Channel”- you sit your keister down and you watch it. Because tanks is cool. And war is neat. I learned so much so much from TV beginning with that war stuff (which of course was integrated nicely with history) and moved on to more history and all I could find from my parent’s generation; the latter possibly responsible for my belief that my current generation sucks. I was such a history geek back in those days it still paid off long after I gave up my glasses and became a hipster; I glided through history and geography classes with relative ease. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2003, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-in-our-schools/151977/112 "2003-02-09T00:39:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SpazCat \* > \*\*Lemme tell you a little secret about standardized testing. They don’t test your knowledge. They test your ability to take a test. Absolutely irrelevant to any kind of real education at all. Unless by real education you mean memorizing facts and regurgitating them onto a bubble sheet. \*\* True, but that’s not how a lot of standardized tests are set up these days. I score standardized tests, actually, so I can assure you that the days of filling in bubbles are over in many states; I’ve only worked on seven states but people in other content areas score different states. Now children are expected to give written reposes to questions, most often in short or long essay form. I’m not going to speculate on the value of the new tests(I find them valuable at the end of the pay period, but that’s neither here nor there), but the days of “Multiple guess” tests are over. ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-in-our-schools/151977/113 "2003-02-09T16:51:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elfkin477 \* > \*\*True, but that’s not how a lot of standardized tests are set up these days. I score standardized tests, actually, so I can assure you that the days of filling in bubbles are over in many states; I’ve only worked on seven states but people in other content areas score different states. Now children are expected to give written reposes to questions, most often in short or long essay form. I’m not going to speculate on the value of the new tests(I find them valuable at the end of the pay period, but that’s neither here nor there), but the days of “Multiple guess” tests are over. \*\* Maybe where YOU live, but not around here. Multiple guess tests are alive and well. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2003, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-in-our-schools/151977/114 "2003-02-09T18:57:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SpazCat \* > \*\*Maybe where YOU live, but not around here. Multiple guess tests are alive and well. \*\* What state do you live in? We don’t deal with just the north east. We score tests from southern and mid-western states as well, none of which are anywhere near where I live. ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2003, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-in-our-schools/151977/115 "2003-02-09T20:08:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elfkin477 \* > \*\*What state do you live in? We don’t deal with just the north east. We score tests from southern and mid-western states as well, none of which are anywhere near where I live. \*\* North Carolina.[Marvel at the multiple-choice-edness.](http://www.ncpublicschools.org/accountability/testing/eoc/) (About halfway down the page is the sample test questions.) ---
**Author:** ![Legomancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/779978/32.png) [@Legomancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Legomancer)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-in-our-schools/151977/116 "2003-02-10T00:54:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elfkin477 \* > \*\*True, but that’s not how a lot of standardized tests are set up these days. I score standardized tests, actually, so I can assure you that the days of filling in bubbles are over in many states; I’ve only worked on seven states but people in other content areas score different states. Now children are expected to give written reposes to questions, most often in short or long essay form. I’m not going to speculate on the value of the new tests(I find them valuable at the end of the pay period, but that’s neither here nor there), but the days of “Multiple guess” tests are over. \*\* The test to get certified as a teacher in the state of Illinois is multiple choice, bubble in the answer. I know, because not only is there exactly one question on the test requiring you to know any Calculus (what is the derivative of sin(x)?) but you have a 25% shot at guessing the right answer. ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-in-our-schools/151977/117 "2003-02-10T01:09:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Legomancer \* > \*\*The test to get certified as a teacher in the state of Illinois is multiple choice, bubble in the answer. I know, because not only is there exactly one question on the test requiring you to know any Calculus (what is the derivative of sin(x)?) but you have a 25% shot at guessing the right answer. \*\* That wouldn’t be the PRAXIS II test would it? I took the English parts of it. One part was what my supervisor (He Who Came Up With Appropriate Names) called “The Test of Literary Trivia” and the other was a lesson plan essay and something else that I’ve forgotten. So it was multiple-guess and performance based. Now to graduate from the Education Dept. at East Carolina, I had to do a portfolio featuring my discipline plan, one week of lesson plans in a continuous unit, examples of student work, and essays on each (except the student work). This was to prepare us for the licensure portfolio that used to be required to get your permanent teaching license in NC until the state ran out of money. If you’ve ever gone for your National Boards or know someone who has, it was a lot like that. THAT is a good way of measuring student achievement. It requires some work to grade, though, and in some parts its hard to be objective unless the student is anonymous. (I really hate standardized testing, in case you couldn’t tell. I could go on and on about it but I’ll spare you.) ---
**Author:** ![Linguini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3ab097/32.png) [@Linguini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linguini)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-in-our-schools/151977/118 "2003-02-10T02:12:40Z")
Public schools here suck. We have one of the shortest school years, 172 days. Most 3 day holiday weekends are now 4 days so the teachers can get a full 3 day weekend on some tropical island. One month after school starts the teachers take almost a week off for a convention which almost none attend. School days have approximately 4.5 hours of instruction. Our test scores are among the countries highest because of the low standards. Way to go teachers unions! ---
**Author:** ![Blackeyes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f6c823/32.png) [@Blackeyes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackeyes)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-in-our-schools/151977/119 "2003-02-10T04:12:41Z")
Public schools ain’t so bad, even in Texas. My high school school has one of -if not the- largest athletic programs in the state. We also have one of the best ones too. Our student population is pretty big as well. However, it prefers to pride itself on its academic merits (in spite of George Bush). But it is a very poor school. The budget is painfully small. That does not make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-in-our-schools/151977/120 "2003-02-10T08:18:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Obsidian Flutterby \* > \*\*I say supposedly because I have never had the experience of grade 12 high school in the States so I can’t compare. \*\* I remember a cow-worker from Newfoundland many years ago claiming that the Atlantic was bigger than the Pacific. Pretty bad until this…Beavers are carnivorous! See they create these damns so that the fish will live in the pond that is created. Why else would they need those big teeth!? I still get a chuckle when I think of another worker sitting across the lunch table with a sandwich half way up to his mouth frozen in disbelief at this statement. No, Americans don’t hold a monopoly on idiots, they come in all shapes, sizes, and nationalities. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-in-our-schools/151977.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-in-our-schools/151977.md?page=7)