# What is going on with the antisemitism from these college heads? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 6, 2023, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-with-the-antisemitism-from-these-college-heads/994173 "2023-12-06T12:40:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2023, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-with-the-antisemitism-from-these-college-heads/994173/321 "2023-12-12T00:31:46Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > But the phrase is about PalestINE, the nation; and nations, unlike people, are mutually exclusive. If PalestINE stretches from the river to the sea, there is no Israel. I agree that either a Palestinian state or an Israeli state that was unilaterally sovereign “from the river to the sea” would by definition exclude the existence of the other state. But that wouldn’t automatically imply genocide for the majority population of the excluded state. (And tbh, if I had to bet on which population was realistically at higher risk of actually getting genocided, it wouldn’t be the Israelis.) > [@Alessan](#): > > In my experience, Americans have a hard time telling the difference between individual rights and national rights, how a person can be free without the collective they see themselves as being part of being free, and vice versa. In my experience, the Americans who chant the slogan “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” (which only exists in that form in English anyway; the phrase doesn’t even rhyme or scan in Arabic) are generally advocating a one-state situation in which all inhabitants have freedom and equal rights in a single democratic state. Yes, that would imply the nonexistence of Israel in its present form as the nation-state of the Jewish people, who are currently the only ones legally entitled to national rights in the state and its territory, according to the Basic Law. But it does not automatically imply or endorse the position that Jews in such a state should have no rights, much less be genocided. Mind you, I get why the prospect of a single not-specifically-Jewish state in Israel/Palestine in practical terms strikes Jewish Israelis as much less secure, and potentially even extremely dangerous, for Jews compared to the current status quo. It is not unreasonable for Israeli Jews to worry that calls for “Free Palestine” are motivated by disregard for, and/or hostility to, the rights of Israeli Jews. That’s why I personally don’t use the phrase when advocating for Palestinian rights. I just don’t like to see the discourse abused by McCarthyite propaganda traps like Stefanik’s (or the OP’s), in which everyone is required to take it for granted that any utterance of the phrase is automatically equivalent to an explicit call for Jewish genocide, and if you don’t agree then oh noes you are obviously antisemitic 😡 😡 😡 ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2023, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-with-the-antisemitism-from-these-college-heads/994173/322 "2023-12-12T00:57:37Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Mind you, I get why the prospect of a single not-specifically-Jewish state in Israel/Palestine in practical terms strikes Jewish Israelis as much less secure, and potentially even extremely dangerous, for Jews compared to the current status quo. It is not unreasonable for Israeli Jews to worry that calls for “Free Palestine” are motivated by disregard for, and/or hostility to, the rights of Israeli Jews. The most charitable interpretation of these calls gives these vibes in a major way. [![](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d7/ec/44/d7ec441a591b1ca5da4f74d32c3591cb.jpg) ](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d7/ec/44/d7ec441a591b1ca5da4f74d32c3591cb.jpg) > [@Kimstu](#): > > In my experience, the Americans who chant the slogan “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” (which only exists in that form in English anyway; the phrase doesn’t even rhyme or scan in Arabic) are generally advocating a one-state situation in which all inhabitants have freedom and equal rights in a single democratic state [Abolishing the state religion or official policy of anti-semitism is no guarantee of safety for the Jewish people.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Soviet_Union) And given the fact that I have never, at any point since 1948, seen the Palestinian leadership convey that a secular, pluralistic Palestinian state is on the table, I’m going to treat such calls very skeptically. > [@Kimstu](#): > > I just don’t like to see the discourse abused by McCarthyite propaganda traps like Stefanik’s (or the OP’s), in which everyone is required to take it for granted that any utterance of the phrase is automatically equivalent to an explicit call for Jewish genocide, and if you don’t agree then oh noes you are obviously antisemitic 😡 😡 😡 SNL’s parody was very on point, I think. “Am I actually winning this?”. Stefanik is a blowhard and an idiot. She has a rotten agenda and asked these questions as a “gotcha”, not out of ideological commitment to any worthwhile value. And yet, these college presidents couldn’t bring themselves to say that yes, calling for genovide was against their schools’ policies. And that’s because of certain troubling attitudes towards antisemitism on the Left, as very eloquently described by @Johnny_Bravo. Note, I didn’t say antisemitic tendencies; I’m not saying these people are antisemitic themselves necessarily; but I think they have a hard time seeing or responding to antisemitism. Because indeed, it doesn’t fit a simplified oppressor/oppressed framework, and it’s unclear if Jews are Whites, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2023, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-with-the-antisemitism-from-these-college-heads/994173/323 "2023-12-12T01:09:36Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > And yet, these college presidents couldn’t bring themselves to say that yes, calling for genovide was against their schools’ policies. Problem is that that is not the question, as asked, who’s answer is in question. If Stefanik had asked ‘Is calling for genocide against your school’s policies?’ instead of "I am asking specifically calling for the genocide of Jews, **does that constitute bullying or harassment**? we wouldn’t be here. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2023, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-with-the-antisemitism-from-these-college-heads/994173/324 "2023-12-12T01:11:20Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > If Stefanik had asked ‘Is calling for genocide against your school’s policies?’ instead of "I am asking specifically calling for the genocide of Jews, **does that constitute bullying or harassment**? we wouldn’t be here. That’s still a very simple answer then. “I don’t know if it constitutes bullying or harassment offhand, that might depend on the specifics of the case; but it definitely violates our code of conduct” could have shut that shit down immediately, if _that_ was the issue. Which is why I don’t think _that_ is the problem here. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2023, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-with-the-antisemitism-from-these-college-heads/994173/325 "2023-12-12T01:46:00Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > That’s still a very simple answer then. “I don’t know if it constitutes bullying or harassment offhand, that might depend on the specifics of the case; but it definitely violates our code of conduct” (Though I now get the mental image of “uh-oh… wait, the code of conduct doesn’t say explicitly _that_ in _words_ anywhere, does it…” 🤦‍♀️ ) And even if then came the suspected “gotcha” about “well, can we expect expulsions and firings if someone gives you a list”, _then_ that’s where you go lawyerly and say, _“be sure, we’ll go through a due process and look at each case, after all we are better than that, we **do** respect everyone’s rights”._ ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2023, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-with-the-antisemitism-from-these-college-heads/994173/326 "2023-12-12T06:33:36Z")
Why has Claudine Gay kept her job? It is a disgrace. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2023, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-with-the-antisemitism-from-these-college-heads/994173/327 "2023-12-12T06:43:42Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The slogan “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” is also not automatically implying genocide of Jews…this has been commonplace …for decades… :Let’s use an analogy from American politics, discussing racial equality You could say: Calling blacks “Negro” is not racist; it has been commonplace for decades The phrase “colored people” is not racist; it has been commonplace for decades. Using strict definitions,. Negro is a perfectly good scientifically accurate word. Colored is a perfectly good English word, often used in the phrase “people of color” But for god’s sake, no public leader would ever be so tone deaf and stupid as to use unacceptable language. Similarly when discussing slogans calling for genocide. Sometimes a simple yes-or-no question can be answered with a simple one word answer. You don’t need “context”. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2023, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-with-the-antisemitism-from-these-college-heads/994173/328 "2023-12-12T10:17:08Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > If Stefanik had asked ‘Is calling for genocide against your school’s policies?’ instead of "I am asking specifically calling for the genocide of Jews, **does that constitute bullying or harassment**? we wouldn’t be here. Stefanik did also ask that specific question. Magill still managed to avoid providing a simple affirmative response to what should have been the easiest question of her career. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2023, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-with-the-antisemitism-from-these-college-heads/994173/329 "2023-12-12T10:35:04Z")
Right? The trap was so so obvious. It’s like it was yelling “I’M A TRAP” and they all still walked, no, they ran into it. Just dumb and costing them a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2023, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-with-the-antisemitism-from-these-college-heads/994173/330 "2023-12-12T10:41:26Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > And that’s because of certain troubling attitudes towards antisemitism on the Left, as very eloquently described by @Johnny_Bravo. Note, I didn’t say antisemitic tendencies; I’m not saying these people are antisemitic themselves necessarily; but I think they have a hard time seeing or responding to antisemitism. Because indeed, it doesn’t fit a simplified oppressor/oppressed framework, and it’s unclear if Jews are Whites, and so on. This rings true. These are intelligent, accomplished women who somehow couldn’t field a softball, all providing similar goofy equivocations. Are they antisemitic? I’d be surprised. And yet… Look, if some right wing firebrand asks you some form of “Does calling for the genocide of Jews constitute [SOMETHING BAD]?” you find a way to answer “yes.” SOMETHING BAD could be violating the code of conduct or making students feel bullied / harassed or whatever. You make sure your answer is NOT some variety of “It depends.” And yet they couldn’t, each providing remarkably similar answers. I’m speculating, of course, but I’d be very confident they’d have answered differently if asked, “Does calling for the extermination of blacks amount to bullying, harassment and a violation of your code of conduct?” I suspect they’d answer properly and without ambiguity. So, why was the question actually posed such a puzzler? I think @Babale is on to something. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2023, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-with-the-antisemitism-from-these-college-heads/994173/331 "2023-12-12T11:28:01Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > That’s why I personally don’t use the phrase when advocating for Palestinian rights. I just don’t like to see the discourse abused by McCarthyite propaganda traps like Stefanik’s (or the OP’s), in which everyone is required to take it for granted that any utterance of the phrase is automatically equivalent to an explicit call for Jewish genocide, and if you don’t agree then oh noes you are obviously antisemitic 😡 😡 😡 And if the were demanding a final solution for Israel, would you say the same? After all, the term “final solution” can mean many things. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2023, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-with-the-antisemitism-from-these-college-heads/994173/332 "2023-12-12T12:19:13Z")
Re. this thread, I always had the impression that the _orthodox_ left was supposed to be like that scene in _Battleship Potemkin_, where there is a big rally in Odessa with people shouting slogans like “All for one! One for all! Down with tyranny!” and the guy who adds “Kill the Jews!” is immediately attacked by an angry mob. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2023, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-with-the-antisemitism-from-these-college-heads/994173/333 "2023-12-12T12:29:36Z")
Today, though, it’s all about “allies” and “solidarity”. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2023, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-with-the-antisemitism-from-these-college-heads/994173/334 "2023-12-12T14:46:25Z")
Well, Harvard for one says “fine, take your billion dollars and walk.” > **[Harvard’s board: We unanimously stand in support of President Gay | CNN Business](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/12/business/claudine-gay-harvard/index.html)** > > Embattled Harvard President Claudine Gay has gained the unanimous support of the university’s board, Harvard’s highest governing body said in a statement Tuesday, giving Gay significant cover to remain in her position after a tumultuous week in which... … kind of easy for a school with a monster endowment, though. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2023, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-with-the-antisemitism-from-these-college-heads/994173/335 "2023-12-12T22:40:26Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > And yet they couldn’t, each providing remarkably similar answers. I’m speculating, of course, but I’d be very confident they’d have answered differently if asked, “Does calling for the extermination of blacks amount to bullying, harassment and a violation of your code of conduct?” I suspect they’d answer properly and without ambiguity. No need to speculate. Stefanik twice asked Claudine Gay some version of, “A Harvard student calling for the mass murder of African Americans is not protected speech at Harvard, is that correct?” Your confidence is misplaced. Within the first 30 seconds of this clip: > **[User Clip: Rep Elise Stefanik v. Harvard Pres](https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5096365%2Fuser-clip-rep-elise-stefanik-v-harvard-pres)** > > The presidents of > @Harvard > , > @MIT > , and > @Penn > were all asked the following question under oath at today’s congressional hearing on antisemitism: > > Does calling for the genocide of Jews violate your university’s code of conduct or rules regarding... ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2023, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-with-the-antisemitism-from-these-college-heads/994173/336 "2023-12-13T01:26:35Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > No need to speculate. Stefanik twice asked Claudine Gay some version of, “A Harvard student calling for the mass murder of African Americans is not protected speech at Harvard, is that correct?” Your confidence is misplaced. Stefanik did indeed ask that question. Unfortunately she didn’t permit Gay to actually answer. So we’re both left to speculate. That said, I will acknowledge that Gay answered the subsequent questions a bit better than Magill. But neither could seem to muster a response that a call for genocide of the Jews was a de facto violation of their code of conduct, all other details aside. There’s a reason they both conducted clean up and issued apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2023, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-with-the-antisemitism-from-these-college-heads/994173/337 "2023-12-13T01:35:32Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Stefanik did indeed ask that question. Unfortunately she didn’t permit Gay to actually answer. So we’re both left to speculate. Come on. It is quite clear that Gay starting to give the same kind of noncommittal answer to the question about African-Americans as she did to the question about Jews before Stefanik cuts her off. It also also clear that she will not give the yes or no response that Stefanik is demanding. You said this before seeing that exchange… > [@Stratocaster](#): > > I suspect they’d answer properly and without ambiguity. Did seeing the clip change your mind at all? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2023, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-with-the-antisemitism-from-these-college-heads/994173/338 "2023-12-13T01:40:41Z")
It did, at least a bit. She may well have answered it similarly. Perhaps her mishandling of the questioning was not so much a blind spot for antisemitism but momentary stupidity. I don’t believe any of them have antisemitism in their hearts. I would have liked to hear her answer though. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2023, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-with-the-antisemitism-from-these-college-heads/994173/339 "2023-12-13T01:49:16Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I would have liked to hear her answer though. There’s a reason Stefanik _didn’t_ want to hear her answer. She could see where things were headed even if you can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2023, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-with-the-antisemitism-from-these-college-heads/994173/340 "2023-12-13T01:50:49Z")
You’re probably right. Still would have liked to hear the answer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-with-the-antisemitism-from-these-college-heads/994173.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-going-on-with-the-antisemitism-from-these-college-heads/994173.md?page=18)