What is going on with the antisemitism from these college heads?

The BBQ Pit
81

To those who are saying , in effect, that progressives cannot be anti-Semites: I agree. However, I don’t believe everyone who claims to be a progressive actually is one. Anyone who is inspired and guided by a far-right organization organization like Hamas is, in my opinion, nothing more than a PINO.

I admit to engaging in a bit of hyperbole. Still, my point stands - we’re very proud of the fact that we’re no longer victims. Victimhood is not something someone should ever aspire to.

I agree that the question should have been asked by a Democrat, but it still merits an answer.

For years, Israelis have looked at the brutal sectarian violence in Lebanon in the 1980s, Iraq in the 2000s and Syria in the 2010s and thought, “When will that happen here?” On October 7, it did.

82

Are you sure you meant to word it this way?

83

And I think you have that backwards. The problem (in the eyes of some) with Israel is that it is Jewish.

In the Arab world there are many countries that have border disputes with one another, but they don’t completely refuse to acknowledge the existence of each other. There are countries that oppress Muslim minorities and get along famously with the Arab World (China and the Uyghurs, of course, but also Russia and the Tartars and other minority groups; and of course, many Arab countries have Muslim minorities that are oppressed - Morocco’s disputed territories for example, or the neighbors of the Kurds).

Yet we don’t see the Arab world unite against China and Russia for their ethnic cleansing of Muslims.

The problem with Israel is that it is Jewish, and the Jew (under this worldview) isn’t supposed to have a state; he is a homeless wanderer, to be tolerated and benefited from if convenient and discarded if not. A Jewish State, from that point of view, is an abomination.

You are right that if Israel did not exist then Jews would perhaps be tolerated in parts of the Arab world where they are not today, in that they wouldn’t be killed on sight; but they would not be accepted as part of society. Their role would be the same as it had been in many societies around the world, before the modern era. They’d be around, doing the best they can, but they’d be subject to all kinds of restrictions (enshrined in law or only de facto); and occasionally they’d be subject to incredible violence, state sponsored or spontaneous, to remind them of their place.

This is the existence that many religious minorities in the Arab world face today; there is no reason to think that this would not be the case if Israel did not exist.*

This is the Jewish existence that Zionism rejected, and this is why Zionism draws so much Anti-Semitism. People point to the Holocaust, but they forget that Zionism predatws the Holocaust by decades. This is because even before the Holocaust, the Jewish existence was intolerable, and had been intolerable for two thousand years.

(*And this ignores the possibilty that without Israel, Pan-Arabism may have been more successful, or it may never have come about; and depending on the specific ideology of a potential Pan-Arabic leader, this could be great or disastrous for the region’s Jewish population).

84

I don’t like Stefanik at all, at all. But she did ask the question and these very bright women should have been able to answer the question better than they did.

No Monty, my error will cause me great embarrassment for the life of this thread. I said right in the post that I was shaking with emotion. Please forgive my mistake.

85

Way too long, did not read:

The Middle East is full of sectarian violence that has nothing to do with Israel or Jews. Clearly, that has to do with the geopolitical history of the Middle East in general. The idea that if Israel didn’t exist antisemitism would be vanishingly rare in the Arab world ignores the fact that hatred of and violence against other religious minorities, and even violence against Muslims by other types of Muslims is also far more common in the Middle East than elsewhere. Without Israel, Middle Eastern Jews would still be subject to that, only they’d have nowhere to run away to.

86

Actually, I did read the way too long version and found it enlightening. :slightly_smiling_face:

I think we disagree only in terms of degree and not in substance. I wouldn’t say that anti-sematism would be vanishingly small, just that the existence of Israel probably made pogroms against Jews in the non-Israeli middle East more likely rather than less likely (while at the same time giving persecuted Jews a place to escape to for a net plus).

At this point I’ve said pretty much all I have to say. My self imposed rule of thumb is that after three back and forth posts trying to explain my position it’s time to drop it, and I’ve exceeded that. So I’ll end the hijack here.

Peace out.

87

Do you think it’s ok that 34% of the non-Arab world also hates us?

88

Of course not! Where the heck did you get that idea?

All I was saying is that Antisemitism (which is a very bad thing to have at any level anywhere) is particularly endemic in the Middle East. Do you disagree?

89

I think 34% is pretty endemic too. My point is saying that people in the rest of the world 50% as much as the Middle East is not a great point of pride and contrary to your hypothesis proves the base level of antisemitism is out there even with people that have no personal connection to Islam, Judaism, the ME, or anything else.

90

Again who said it was a great point of pride? I’m not saying that antisemitism doesn’t exist or that its is all due to Israel. I was saying that in terms of antisemitism (which is bad and all too high in all places) the Middle East is a huge outier and this is probably due to its proximity to Israel. You can disagree and say, as @Babale so ably did, that there other causes as to why its so high. But don’t falsely accuse me of dismissing Antisemitism, in all its forms, as not being a problem, or as being Israel’s fault or the Jews fault.

91

I’m not directing at you, so my apologies for that. My anger, confusion, and bewilderment is trying to understand why people hate me because of my religion, why people hated my grandparents in Eastern Europe pre and post WW I, why people hated my wife’s grandparents in the 1930s and 1940s Poland and France. None of these things had anything to do with Israel and if we go back to the OP it is absolutely frightening.

92

OK we’re cool. But yeah I don’t get it either.

93

I agree it is bewildering and frightening.

But I also fear that the actions of the Israel’s government and armed forces are going to give the haters in the rest of the world an excuse to harm and abuse Jews who have absolutely nothing to do with the Hamas-Israel war.

Which in no way makes Jews exceptional - they are hardly the only stateless group that live as minorities in other countries at the sufferance of the majority, which might evaporate with little or not warning. They are not the only group whose diaspora is saddled with or held accountable for the actions of distant relations they have no control over and nothing to do with.

But it is mightily frustrating for those of us in the Diaspora who have nothing to do with this war but might still be made to suffer for it when an Israeli starts going on about how they’ve worked so hard for Israel to be a safe haven of last resort. I don’t want to need your “last resort” I want to live here, in my home, in the country I’ve known all my life. I don’t want to be forced to move to another continent and live under constant siege, ducking into bomb shelters and safe rooms on a regular basis. That’s not a safe place. I don’t want to live under a regime that treats others as second class citizens based on their ethnicity or religion (I see too much of that here, sadly - but at least I know the language and customs here). That is abhorrent to me. Yet I worry that the actions of Israel’s government will make it much more likely that I will be forced to do just that. Is it a puzzle that I don’t want to be part of that self-fulfilling prophecy?

Would any Israeli be happy to be forced to relocate to a different country, even if that country announced it would be a safe haven for them? Why then does it seem so difficult to understand why I don’t want to be forced to move, either? What the old men in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem are doing, claiming it’s for their own safety, is making me less safe. Why the hell would I trust them? Why the hell would I want to live in a country they run?

I don’t have a problem with the country of Israel existing. I very much have a problem with the people currently in power. And I have zero desire to live there, whether it’s evil old men or a new and kinder regime running the place. It’s not my country. It never has been. I don’t foresee a time when it will ever be my country even if I’m forced to live there as a refugee. I’m not Israeli, I’m American.

94

I think this is better.

95

No worries. I fully understand being emotional on this issue.

96

Before I condemn them I’m going to need better claims than the ones coming from the side chanting “From the River to the Sea” (I don’t mean you, Broomstick) or the academic community that has not exactly covered itself in glory in the past two months.

So far, most of the claims we’ve heard from Hamas and the “International Community” have been bullshit. Yes, there was a Hamas base under the hospital. No, 500 people did not die in the hospital attack, and no, Israel did not fire the missile. I assume that anything I hear about the war from the UN, the Red Cross, the Palestinians or the Arab world (or apparently Ivy League universities in America) is liberally filled with Hamas propaganda. Hamas claims of indiscriminate bombing of Gaza are rejected by the IDF, and you’d have to be a moral cretin to reflexively take Hamas’ word on that. Or an anti-Semite. But I repeat myself.

97

cite? What I’ve seen so far is pretty equivalent to Sadam Hussein having WMD. Happy to be corrected. A few journalists 2 weeks ago were shown a short tunnel. Got anything from a reputable news site that shows Israeli troops infiltrated these tunnels, found command and control centers, or anything? I get it is dangerous, but the IDF hasn’t wargamed this to the nth degree? They haven’t trained special forces and high tech breaching weapons to get into the tunnels? It’s been about 2 weeks since IDF breached the hospital.

Of course, this doesn’t downplay the horrific attack by Hamas.

98

…no there wasn’t.

And even if there was, there are nineteen hospitals that are no longer functional in Gaza. Were there Hamas bases under every single one of them?

99

Fair enough

100

I’m not an expert on this subject. I am sick of terrorism and I’m sick of average civilians and innocent children being butchered by whom ever is butchering them. I think the Israeli government sucks, I think most of the settlers suck, I think Hamas sucks, I think Russia sucks, etc. etc. I don’t really understand antisemitism it makes no sense to me. Having said that any form of bigotry or hate based on othering people disgusts and bewilders me.