# What is Goth Music? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 14, 2006, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-goth-music/348359 "2006-03-14T20:44:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![arcticdonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e95f7d/32.png) [@arcticdonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/arcticdonkey)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-goth-music/348359/21 "2006-03-15T19:33:47Z")
good point, but i’d say no unless his nails were black ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-goth-music/348359/22 "2006-03-15T19:36:49Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Exactly. > > Before opening the thread, i said to myself, “I’ll bet someone has suggested that Dead Can Dance is a goth band.” Sure enough! > > Their name nearly always comes up in discussions of Goth music and, imprecise as any definition of the term must be, no-one will ever convince me that Dead Can Dance belongs in the category. Dead Can Dance was goth for about one early album. They quickly changed and settled into their neo-Baroque style afterward, but by then the Goth label had already been applied. A goth label is just like that faded Dukakis/Ferraro bumper sticker that stubbornly refuses to come off of your old Volvo. Once applied, good luck removing it, and look forward to a lifetime of explaining it away. Other bands that still have packets of goths tagging along at their concerts: The Cult, The Mission UK, Love and Rockets. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-goth-music/348359/23 "2006-03-15T19:40:07Z")
Umm, or was it Dukakis/Hart? or Bentsen? Ugh, the 80’s were a strange era. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-goth-music/348359/24 "2006-03-15T19:47:48Z")
> [@GargoyleWB](#): > > Umm, or was it Dukakis/Hart? or Bentsen? Ugh, the 80’s were a strange era. Bentsen. Mondale ran with Feraro ---
**Author:** ![Ghanima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Ghanima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ghanima)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-goth-music/348359/25 "2006-03-15T19:55:56Z")
Please indulge me while I take a trip down memory lane and list as many bands as I can think of from my old gothy days: And Also the Trees Alien Sex Fiend Bauhaus Sexgang Children Andi Sexgang Love and Rockets Tones on Tail The Cure Depeche Mode Cocteau Twins Dead Can Dance Sisters of Mercy The Sisterhood Christian Death Skinny Puppy Ministry My Life with the Thrill Kill Cult Nine Inch Nails Siouxsie and the Banshees Front 242 Joy Division New Order Laibach KMFDM Current 93 This Mortal Coil His Name is Alive Throwing Muses Peter Murphy Birthday Party Lydia Lunch Kate Bush Wolfgang Press Clan of Xymox Xymox The Mission Mission UK The Cult Fields of the Nephelim The Church The Smiths Echo and the Bunnymen The Damned XTC Dukes of the Stratosphear The Glove The Creatures Coil Foetus Death in June Diamanda Galas Einsturzende Neubauten Frontline Assembly Lene Lovich Pigface That’s all I can come up with for now, but it should give you a good idea of when I was a goth! ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-goth-music/348359/26 "2006-03-15T21:57:42Z")
What, no The Moon Lay Hidden Beneath a Cloud? That band is \*my \*test of Goth cred. Seriously though, has anyone else ever heard of them? ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-goth-music/348359/27 "2006-03-15T22:14:20Z")
> [@Ghanima](#): > > New Order > The Cult > The Smiths > Echo and the Bunnymen > The Damned I can only shake my head at the suggestion that the Smith’s are goth or Echo? COME ON! – are rice crispies goth? what about water? nachos? socks?-- But the brick that broke my back - the Damned - that’s a punk band for the love of pete! ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2006, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-goth-music/348359/28 "2006-03-15T22:20:44Z")
Well, except, Bean, that “goth” is largely undefinable as a musical genre. The only definition that makes any sense is “music that ‘Goths’ listen to.” On that count, all those bands qualify. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-goth-music/348359/29 "2006-03-16T00:39:39Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Well, except, Bean, that “goth” is largely undefinable as a musical genre. The only definition that makes any sense is “music that ‘Goths’ listen to.” > > On that count, all those bands qualify. see posts 8 and 9 and my quip about nachos, socks, etc. I think you’re wrong. I think it’s clear that there definitely is a style of music that has been labeled (or sub-labeled) “goth” (see, e.g. Peter Murphy and Bauhaus). The problem we’re having is one that arises when a style of music breeds a distinct subculture – a subculture so distinct that it takes on a life seperate and apart from the music. That members of the goth subculture have expanded their catalogue of musical tastes to include music in which they find goth themes or music that they just happen to like, doesn’t make everything that they listen to goth music. Sorry, the Damned aren’t goth just because goths (the subculture) listen to them anymore so than Young Jeezy is a frat boy by virtrue of his popularity with that set. In other words, goths like goth, but maybe they also likesome punk and new wave – doesn’t make that punk and new wave goth. ---
**Author:** ![Ghanima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Ghanima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ghanima)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-goth-music/348359/30 "2006-03-16T01:00:47Z")
Please realize that among my friends none of us took ourselves to seriously in terms of being a “punk” or a “goth” or “deathrocker” or what have you. In my teenage years, all the non-mainstream kids hung out together. Thus I would hang out with my metalhead friend Marty and we’d get high and listen to Pink Floyd, and so forth. I make no claim that all of these bands are “goth”, simply that I or my friends listened to all these bands during that phase of my life. I forgot to add Duran Duran, Madonna, Metallica and Jane’s Addiction, but had I remembered, all of those would have been on my list too. None of them are “goth” but the goth people I knew all liked those bands. My point is, goth was what you made it for a very long time. The only goth bands that may have actually called themselves that back in my day were 45 Grave and Christian Death. Nowadays there are many bands that identify themselves as goth. This wasn’t always the case. ---
**Author:** ![hazel-rah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hazel-rah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hazel-rah)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-goth-music/348359/31 "2006-03-16T02:01:06Z")
Very few goths I’ve met are vegans… most of the ones I knew were staunchly anti-vegetarian, actually. They wouldn’t give up leather or blood and you’ve got to be something of an idealist to stick with animal rights, not a misanthropic cynic. I’ve seen Dead Can Dance live and it was wall-to-wall goths dressed to the nines, or to the thirteens as it were. They’re not a goth band because some goths like them, they’re a goth band because a _shitload_ of goths _worship_ them. _Within the Realm of a Dying Sun_ also has one of the gothiest goth goth album covers of all time. In a related note, The Damned are goth because of one album, _Phantasmagoria_. If they didn’t want to be a goth band, they shouldn’t have used that picture on the cover. They knew what they were getting into. Goth bands will always deny being goth bands, which is only good sense. If a goth band says they’re goth, run away. Also, I like The Moon Lay Hidden Beneath a Cloud… I even have the book. And that about fulfills my posting quota for the word “goth” for the next five years. ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-goth-music/348359/32 "2006-03-16T02:04:59Z")
I think Elysian Fields (with Jennifer Charles from Lovage) and Faith and the Muse are two other Gothy bands nobody has named yet. ---
**Author:** ![Biotop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biotop/32/321_2.png) [@Biotop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biotop)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-goth-music/348359/33 "2006-03-16T02:17:14Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > What, no The Moon Lay Hidden Beneath a Cloud? > > That band is \*my \*test of Goth cred. > > Seriously though, has anyone else ever heard of them? Another vote for **TMLHBAC**. Indeed, the World Serpent label was one of the finest source for this genre. It is missed. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-goth-music/348359/34 "2006-03-16T02:19:00Z")
For the life of me I can’t figure out why Concrete Blonde was never identified as Goth. They certainly deal with the same issues using the same language and much of the same music. Furthermore there isn’t any _other_ genre they fit in well with. Like others have said, I bet if I went to one of their shows it would have a high Goth quotient (if a bit older than some groups.) On alt.Gothic back in the day, the one time they were brought up the basic response was “sure, if they had to be anything, they’d be Goth, but I just don’t see it.” (I didn’t bring it up myself, btw.) One of my theories is that it has to do with the incestuous nature of a lot of the subgenres of “Modern Rock” (emo is guilty of this, too.) So not only original Goth bands considered part of the genre, but bands that formed from their members or have another direct connection are grandfathered in (for instance, New Order and Love and Rockets.) Bands that sound similar to these aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-goth-music/348359/35 "2006-03-16T03:48:27Z")
I never heard the term goth when I was in high school (back in a nuclear age, when Robert Palmer still walked the earth). But a bunch of my friends listened to Depeche Mode, the Cure, & Bauhaus, & I got into the Church’s relatively freaky dark stuff from _Starfish_ on. A few years later, there were all these kids dressing like the Munsters & wearing makeup more appropriate to the stage than to general wear, calling themselves Goth. I thought it ridiculous, & still do. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-goth-music/348359/36 "2006-03-16T05:05:52Z")
I’m amused that New Order, the owners of the ecstasy fueled Hacienda, where raves may have been born, have Goth cred. ---
**Author:** ![mrunlucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7993a0/32.png) [@mrunlucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrunlucky)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-goth-music/348359/37 "2006-03-16T05:35:17Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > I’m amused that New Order, the owners of the ecstasy fueled Hacienda, where raves may have been born, have Goth cred. You do know that New Order arose from the ashes of Joy Division right? I’m sure you do. But I bet plenty of people still don’t. (I feel like I’m in high school again pointing this out.) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-goth-music/348359/38 "2006-03-16T14:41:21Z")
> [@mrunlucky](#): > > You do know that New Order arose from the ashes of Joy Division right? You have a point. Or you would, _if Joy Division were a Goth Band_. However, they are not, for who else was the term “post-punk” invented for, if not Joy Division? OK, maybe the Fall, too. Once again, band Goths listen to =/= Goth Band. To be a Goth Band, I submit that the members themselves must in some way subscribe to Goth, from Peter Murphy with his tights and winklepickers, to Black Tape for a Blue Girl with their friggin’ Goth _music label_! ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-goth-music/348359/39 "2006-03-16T15:44:21Z")
I’ve always wondered if late era T.S.O.L (Silent Scream) or Glen Danzig’s more operatic howlings qualified as “Goth”. ---
**Author:** ![Anastasaeon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@Anastasaeon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anastasaeon)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-goth-music/348359/40 "2006-03-16T15:56:22Z")
Whoa. I listen to all the bands mentioned in this thread. I _must_ be a goth. 😉 ( **noooooo** , I’m not… though I am pale enough, I suppose). Just add in **Razed In Black**. I wonder if there’s a member card and benefits. Other goths would glare at me at first (since, you know, I tend to wear a lot of pink. Not hot pink, either), and then I’d flash my little goth card. “It’s cool, I’m with you guys.” _Riiight_. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-goth-music/348359.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-goth-music/348359.md?page=3)