# What Is Irony? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 13, 2004, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-irony/274565 "2004-11-13T15:15:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2004, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-irony/274565/1 "2004-11-13T15:15:05Z")
So we all know what the dictionary says: > [@](#): > > originally posted by _[dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com)_ > > 1. a. The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning. b. An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning. c. A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous or rhetorical effect. See Synonyms at wit. > 2. a. Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs: “Hyde noted the irony of Ireland’s copying the nation she most hated” (Richard Kain). b. An occurrence, result, or circumstance notable for such incongruity. See Usage Note at ironic. > 3. Dramatic irony. > 4. Socratic irony. And we all know what is _not_ ironic, i.e., Alanis Morrisette’s ‘Isn’t it Ironic?’ It seems to me, that irony is like obscenity: you know it when you see it. But it seems incredible what a variance of opinion there is on what _really_ constitutes ‘irony’. I just read a chapter (‘Beyond Anger, Irony’) of a scholarly tome in which the author, S. H. Braund, defines ‘irony’ in this way: ‘Irony does not alienate us with extremes but beguiles us with reasonableness…Irony includes a positive outlook but does not neglect the negative aspect. Irony, in short, balances between two opposite poles’ (_Beyond Anger_, p. 183). This left me feeling as though the entire chapter was working on false assumptions. Or was just complete bollocks. So I put it to the Dope: What in the bloody hell is irony, anyway? Examples much appreciated. Cheers, Daphne ---
**Author:** ![sidle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee59a6/32.png) [@sidle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sidle)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-irony/274565/2 "2004-11-13T15:17:32Z")
I don’t have a clue, but I’m waiting anxiously for responses. It seems to me that irony’s previously wide net has been pulled and the definition narrowed back to its most basic and narrow applications. I have no problem with this, precision’s good, but it leaves me a bit bewildered. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_You\_Big\_Red\_Fire\_Engine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/eada6e/32.png) [@Go\_You\_Big\_Red\_Fire\_Engine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_You_Big_Red_Fire_Engine)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2004, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-irony/274565/3 "2004-11-13T15:19:12Z")
Anytime someone says something was ironic. Say, “No, it’s not” because a lot of people cannot define irony. “… it was so ironic” “no it wasn’t” "…you’re right " ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2004, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-irony/274565/4 "2004-11-13T15:26:38Z")
See, this is what I mean. The dictionary definition is really no help; how can one decide if something is ‘incongruous to expectation’ or not? Whuzzat? My old History prof would make some vaguely offensive statement, and then whenever anyone called him on it, would insist that he was ‘merely being ironic. And you didn’t understand because Americans don’t use irony in their humor.’ Argh! So a corrollary is, why is the concept so difficult to pin down? Cheers, Daphne ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2004, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-irony/274565/5 "2004-11-13T15:32:20Z")
A lot of Brits mistake sarcasm for irony. I give you a couple of comedians’ takes on it. First, from _Comedy Lab_: Style wanker #1: “Aha, I see you’re reading a porno mag. But you’re reading it in a postmodern, ironic style.” Style wanker #2: “No, I’m reading it because I want to have a wank.” Style wanker #1: “Oh I get it: sincerity is the new irony.” Style wanker #2: “You wanker.” The comedian Ed Byrne’s [deconstruction of Alanis Morisette’s song](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5104960#post5104960) is the best simple description of irony that I’ve heard. “In fact, the only thing about ‘Ironic’ that’s actually ironic is that it’s a song about irony written by somebody who has no idea what irony is.” ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-irony/274565/6 "2004-11-13T16:14:49Z")
My father, whose bone-dry sense of humor I inherited, used to differentiate between sarcasm, the intent of which was to hurt someone, and irony, which was not directed personally at anyone. This is a distinction I attempt to maintain. That’s all I’ve got, though – don’t ask me to define “irony.” (I gotta tell ya, though, **Daphne** , that single jargon-laden sentence from Braund reminds me of a lot of the reasons I’m glad I left academia.) ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2004, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-irony/274565/7 "2004-11-13T16:27:12Z")
Irony is the surprising contrast between appearance and reality, or expectation and outcome. There are three types of irony: Verbal irony, aka sarcasm, is when you say one thing but your actual meaning is the opposite of your surface meaning. For example: “Ummm, yeah, _The O.C._ is a really great show…right.” Dramatic irony, aka soap opera plot device, is when a character believes something that the audience/reader knows is false. For example, Dakota is dating Lionel and they set up a secret rendezvous; little does she know, she’s actually meeting with his evil twin, thus making all of her words and actions have a different meaning than the one she intends. Madcap hilarity and misunderstandings ensue. Situational irony, aka the plot twist, is when the expected result diverges from the actual result, which usually surprises the audience/reader. The best example I can think of is the movie The Usual Suspects: Throughout the movie, Chaz Palmintieri’s character is telling Verbal Kint what a weak, stupid tool he is, trying to break him down, trying to get him to admit that Dean Keaton is Keyser Soze… but at the end, we and Chaz find out who’s the tool and who’s been broken. Classic situational irony. I teach this to my 7th graders and by the end of the year, they can identify all three forms of irony and can explain it, well, a hell of a lot better than Alanis Morissette can. ---
**Author:** ![Ms\_Boods](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5e9695/32.png) [@Ms\_Boods](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms_Boods)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2004, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-irony/274565/8 "2004-11-13T16:44:05Z")
Blackadder: Baldrick, have you no idea what irony is? Baldrick: Yes, it’s like goldy and bronzy only it’s made out of iron. ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2004, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-irony/274565/9 "2004-11-13T17:07:01Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > My father, whose bone-dry sense of humor I inherited, used to differentiate between sarcasm, the intent of which was to hurt someone, and irony, which was not directed personally at anyone. This is a distinction I attempt to maintain. > > That’s all I’ve got, though – don’t ask me to define “irony.” > > (I gotta tell ya, though, **Daphne** , that single jargon-laden sentence from Braund reminds me of a lot of the reasons I’m glad I left academia.) The sad thing is, that sentence is much less jargony than a whole lot of academic writing. I am on a personal crusade to mercilessly mock academese until it cowers before me. Get back to me in a millenium and we’ll see how it’s going. And don’t get me start on ‘reify’ – that’s the worst. > [@](#): > > originally posted by **jjimm** > A no-smoking sign on your cigarette break, that’s inconsiderate office management. A no-smoking sign in a cigarette factory - irony. It’s not a difficult concept, Alanis. It’s very rare you see an ironic no-smoking sign, although if you ever see one of those that say “thank-you for not smoking” and you are, that’s fairly ironic. Yes, this is the crux of the matter. This example clearly shows the difference between sarcasm and irony. But then again, if someone came up to you while you were smoking and said, ‘thank you for not smoking’ that would be sarcasm, right? Similarly, is it ironic when (to continue with Byrne’s claims) someone says they read Playboy for the articles – but they are being truthful? It’s a puzzle wrapped in an enigma… Daphne ---
**Author:** ![Misnomer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/misnomer/32/14897_2.png) [@Misnomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misnomer)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2004, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-irony/274565/10 "2004-11-13T17:56:56Z")
> [@DaphneBlack](#): > > And we all know what is not ironic, i.e., Alanis Morrisette’s ‘Isn’t it Ironic?’ Every time I hear this criticism of Morisette’s song (which I agree with in general), I think of the one example of those lyrics that I think _is_ ironic: there’s the guy who was always too afraid to fly, and when he finally gets on a plane it crashes. Isn’t that irony? > [@jjimm](#): > > A lot of Brits mistake sarcasm for irony. No mistake: as **Rubystreak** mentioned, sarcasm is often ironic. In fact, when I read the first definition of “irony” that **DaphneBlack** provided I thought “hey, isn’t that sarcasm?” So I looked it up, and Webster defines [sarcasm](http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=sarcasm&x=0&y=0) as: **1 :** a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain \ **2 a :** a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual **b :** the use or language of sarcasm \ **synonym** see WIT ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2004, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-irony/274565/11 "2004-11-13T18:50:58Z")
> [@Misnomer](#): > > Every time I hear this criticism of Morisette’s song (which I agree with in general), I think of the one example of those lyrics that I think _is_ ironic: there’s the guy who was always too afraid to fly, and when he finally gets on a plane it crashes. Isn’t that irony? Yes, that seems pretty ironic. I think. It really does seem to be a ‘know it when you see it’ sort of thing. I wonder why that is. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-irony/274565/12 "2004-11-13T19:58:54Z")
A friend’s young daughter once asked me what irony was. I have to admit it stumped me to some degree and I could only give an example. I don’t really know if it was a very good example, but I was trying to think quickly and off the cuff-- I told her irony would be, for example, if you gave somebody a gift for their birthday and somebody else gave them the same gift. I added that it is a coincidence, but it is ironic. What do you all think? Is this an example of irony? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2004, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-irony/274565/13 "2004-11-13T20:40:11Z")
> [@Misnomer](#): > > Every time I hear this criticism of Morisette’s song (which I agree with in general), I think of the one example of those lyrics that I think _is_ ironic: there’s the guy who was always too afraid to fly, and when he finally gets on a plane it crashes. Isn’t that irony? I don’t think that’s irony. The guy’s afraid to fly, and it turns out he’s right to be. So, what’s happening is just what he expected to happen. It would be irony if he drove to where he was going because he was afraid to fly, but got killed in a car accident on the way there, while the plane he would have been on landed safely. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2004, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-irony/274565/14 "2004-11-13T22:26:10Z")
I don’t remember who said this, but… The ocean is huge. No sign of land anywhere. And in this ocean is a cruise ship, tiny and white against the endless blue. And on this tiny cruise ship is an even tinier swimming pool. And you drown in it. ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-irony/274565/15 "2004-11-14T01:24:57Z")
I concede that **Captain Amazing** has come up with a more ironic situation. Also **Johnny LA**. But is not that plane crash pretty ironic in a cosmic sense? One of the main problems I have is determining the _perspective_ for any individual instance of irony. With dramatic irony, that is solved. but otherwise, who makes the determination? What else is there that can only really be defined by example? Obscenity, I guess. But this seems even less clear cut. Even Socrates got in trouble for claiming ‘irony’ as a defence… Daphne ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-irony/274565/16 "2004-11-14T01:33:51Z")
Irony should contain elements of the paradoxical. If I start a crusade to establish a religion that will contain only one dogmatic principle that all of its believers are to accept as Absolute Truth, and that principle is the axiom that “in all things, in all matters, each of us is a fallible human being and might be wrong, and must always keep that in mind”, that’s paradoxical. If my religion ultimately fails because people find themselves unwilling to accept such a principle without question, that’s ironic. ---
**Author:** ![Antigen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/848f3c/32.png) [@Antigen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antigen)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-irony/274565/17 "2004-11-14T01:34:20Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > I don’t think that’s irony. The guy’s afraid to fly, and it turns out he’s right to be. So, what’s happening is just what he expected to happen. > > It would be irony if he drove to where he was going because he was afraid to fly, but got killed in a car accident on the way there, while the plane he would have been on landed safely. He’s killed in an accident when a plane falls on his car. Now **that’s** irony. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-irony/274565/18 "2004-11-14T01:35:10Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > A friend’s young daughter once asked me what irony was. I have to admit it stumped me to some degree and I could only give an example. I don’t really know if it was a very good example, but I was trying to think quickly and off the cuff-- I told her irony would be, for example, if you gave somebody a gift for their birthday and somebody else gave them the same gift. I added that it is a coincidence, but it is ironic. > What do you all think? Is this an example of irony? This is not irony. It’s not sarcasm; it’s not a soap opera device where someone knows those gifts are the same but the birthday girl doesn’t, with significantly incongruous results; and it’s not a surprising plot twist. It’s just something that happens, like a drawer full of spoons when all you need is a knife. The example of a guy who is terrified to fly who finally flies and dies in a plane crash is ironic if he went through a lot of therapy and was convinced that his fears were ridiculous. He flies, feeling silly about his fears, and then, CRASH ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-irony/274565/19 "2004-11-14T02:25:44Z")
There is no irony in the incongruity of two identical gifts from two seperate people, while the expectations for the birthday giftee is to receive unique gifts? The matching gifts given to the same person are congruent incongruencies of expectation. …or not? ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-irony/274565/20 "2004-11-14T03:36:56Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > There is no irony in the incongruity of two identical gifts from two seperate people, while the expectations for the birthday giftee is to receive unique gifts? The matching gifts given to the same person are congruent incongru **ities** of expectation. > …or not? Correction, should read “incongruities”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-irony/274565.md?page=2)