# What is Israel trying to hide? (barring of UN fact-finding commission) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 28, 2002, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-israel-trying-to-hide-barring-of-un-fact-finding-commission/106172 "2002-04-28T22:24:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2002, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-israel-trying-to-hide-barring-of-un-fact-finding-commission/106172/41 "2002-04-30T16:09:43Z")
Here’s some more articles for you. They may be slanted to one side but YMMV [Jenin camp ‘horrific beyond belief’](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1937000/1937387.stm) BBC. [In pictures: Return to Jenin](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1941000/1941504.stm) BBC. [Tragedy at Jenin, says US envoy](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1940000/1940913.stm) BBC [Israel accused over Jenin assault](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4399476,00.html) Guardian [Battle for truth in Jenin](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4400074,00.html) Guardian [Israeli tanks keep residents of Jenin camp under siege](http://scripts.ireland.com/search/highlight.plx?TextRes=Jenin%2A&Path=/newspaper/world/2002/0409/2203451358fr09jenin.html) Irish Times [From the ruins of Jenin, the truth about an atrocity](http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=286934) Independent [Amid the rubble of Jenin, Palestinians bury their dead](http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=286974) Independent [‘The soldier shouted, kill them, kill them’](http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=287332) Independent [Once upon a time in Jenin](http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=288592) Independent [A BBC search for Jenin](http://newssearch.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/results.pl?tab=news&scope=news&q=jenin) 🙂 As I said some of these probably aren’t the most impartial reads but you may not have read them so have a look see. ---
**Author:** ![Jdeforrest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/49beb7/32.png) [@Jdeforrest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jdeforrest)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2002, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-israel-trying-to-hide-barring-of-un-fact-finding-commission/106172/42 "2002-04-30T17:50:05Z")
I was fwd’d an email by an aquaintance who is very active with Israeli politics. The email is from, “Israel Resource News Agency, Jerusalem, Israel.” I lays out a detailed (though biased) approach to showing anti-Israeli bias in the U.N. The text of it is a little long to post so I will fwd it to anyone who may want it. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2002, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-israel-trying-to-hide-barring-of-un-fact-finding-commission/106172/43 "2002-04-30T18:24:49Z")
I’d like to see it, as I haven’t read a lot from a strictly Israeli POV. [yoji101@yahoo.co.uk](mailto:yoji101@yahoo.co.uk) Thx ---
**Author:** ![Mandos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mandos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandos)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2002, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-israel-trying-to-hide-barring-of-un-fact-finding-commission/106172/44 "2002-04-30T23:31:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by China Guy \* > \*\* > Mandos, I read that article. Impartial does not necessarily mean a friend of Israel. IMHO, someone who is skeptical of Israel’s claim makes a much more credible observer. \*\* I’m sorry, but you just made a mistake. Of course impartial does not mean a friend of Israel. When did I imply that. However…somone skeptical of Israel’s claim would NOT be more credible. Why? It means that they believe that the Palestinian claim is more credible. The only unbiased observer would be one who is skeptical about both claims, or none. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2002, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-israel-trying-to-hide-barring-of-un-fact-finding-commission/106172/45 "2002-05-01T05:09:41Z")
Saddam Hussein will use this imbroglio as an excuse to prevent the UN investigators entering his country. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2002, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-israel-trying-to-hide-barring-of-un-fact-finding-commission/106172/46 "2002-05-01T20:35:27Z")
[This](http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020501-5587072.htm) may be of interest. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2002, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-israel-trying-to-hide-barring-of-un-fact-finding-commission/106172/47 "2002-05-01T20:58:15Z")
> [@](#): > > **capacitor** > Saddam Hussein will use this imbroglio as an excuse to prevent the UN investigators entering his country. He doesn’t need an excuse. He long since kicked the investigators out, and the UN stood for it. ---
**Author:** ![Mandos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mandos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandos)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-israel-trying-to-hide-barring-of-un-fact-finding-commission/106172/48 "2002-05-02T00:18:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by capacitor \* > \*\*Saddam Hussein will use this imbroglio as an excuse to prevent the UN investigators entering his country. \*\* That isn’t really a fair comparison. While he could do this, he doesn’t really need to. Also, another problem with the people the UN chose was that they didn’t seem to have the expertise required to investigate the situation properly. I would hope, though I have not thoroughly researched this matter, that the investigators had the expertise to do the job properly. ---
**Author:** ![Mandos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mandos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandos)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-israel-trying-to-hide-barring-of-un-fact-finding-commission/106172/49 "2002-05-02T00:22:34Z")
Also, I would like to add, the investigators hardly seem necessary in the case of Hussein. After all, it seems fairly obvious that he has participated in that sort of thing before, and still actively is (I have not researched this with great depth, so excuse any error in the previous statement. That’s just my impression of the situation.) Israel, as far as I know, has not deliberately targeted civilians. In those cases where an isolated individual has, of which I do not know about, then it seems unlikely that Israel would not condemn such actions. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2002, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-israel-trying-to-hide-barring-of-un-fact-finding-commission/106172/50 "2002-05-02T00:59:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mandos \* > \*\*I’m sorry, but you just made a mistake. Of course impartial does not mean a friend of Israel. When did I imply that. However…somone skeptical of Israel’s claim would NOT be more credible. Why? It means that they believe that the Palestinian claim is more credible. The only unbiased observer would be one who is skeptical about both claims, or none. \*\* Maybe I left off a fragment. Someone who is a credible observer but skeptical of Israel’s claim would be much more believeable if they came to the conclusing that there was no massacre. Obviously, someone like Arafat or Sharon have zero credibility for an unbiased observation. Sadako Ogata, former United Nations high commissioner for refugees, has a lot of credibility. Granted, she isn’t a military person or counterintelligence expert. But she has a track record of dealing with refugee crisises and it would be easy to compare her findings over jenin with her past history. Again, I haven’t seen the Israeli’s propose a fact finding mission made up of impartial observers. They just say that this is an obvious dirt finding mission so all bets are off. ---
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-israel-trying-to-hide-barring-of-un-fact-finding-commission/106172/51 "2002-05-03T09:21:35Z")
[http://apnews.excite.com/article/20020503/D7J90M000.html](http://apnews.excite.com/article/20020503/D7J90M000.html) (paragraphs 7 and 8) A non-governmental agency, which apparently has managed to go where the UN couldn’t, has determined that there wasn’t a “massacre,” but that there were illegal and willful killings (“willful” implying “deliberate and avoidable”) that could be seen as war crimes. This is what I’ve been saying all along, and it jibes with the reports I’ve read. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-israel-trying-to-hide-barring-of-un-fact-finding-commission/106172/52 "2002-05-03T21:20:42Z")
Here is another article pointing out that the _facts_ are almost irrelevant in this case. [Slate - Just the Facts, Imam: The search for answers in Jenin becomes a fight over questions.](http://slate.msn.com/?id=2065250) Note the crucial observations in the first three paragraphs. ---
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2002, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-israel-trying-to-hide-barring-of-un-fact-finding-commission/106172/53 "2002-05-05T01:21:56Z")
The report I referred to in my last post is now the subject of a thread by **yojimbo** , with a direct link to the full text. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=113099](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=113099) Perhaps that thread should be considered an extension of this one, especially since Kofi Annan has now disbanded the UN team. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-israel-trying-to-hide-barring-of-un-fact-finding-commission/106172.md?page=2)