C’mon now, things went the way they went. There is absolutely no reason to speculate over millions of dynamics that could have subtly impacted the events of that day. How can we prove that Gore wouldn’t have sat there for a minute longer then Bush did? What about if Bush’s morning dump had needed less wiping? He would have gotten to the school earlier, left earlier, and possibly have been already on AF1, in a position to react faster.
These type of exercises are pointless, and waste of time. We might as well go back to bitching about the 2000 election. :rolleyes:
No, I’m sorry, but your statement does not match what we already know.
Even small changes in the US response could have yielded big returns.
If you accept that additional attacks were planned, then at least one attack was stopped merely by ordering the planes grounded.
That was accomplished with one phone call, from a career bureaucrat with no security functions in particular.
I do not state that 9/11 could definately be prevented.
That would be too much to hope for.
But even minor changes, taken by an poorly informed man, could have yielded major results.
I regard the response to the crisis to be a poor one.
I assign no single person the blame. Instead, I believe that a poor philosophy and a poor team created this nightmare. With more weight on the team, insofar as a conservative can lead well.
I’m very comfortable that anyone who is not a rabid Bush hater will come the same conclusion I did. He’s been called on it again and again, with increasing frequency of late. Roll your eyes all you want…
No, the point was that you are hardly one to criticize others for having an agenda, when you obviously do yourself. Everyone here has a right to his opinion, and to be frank, I think it’s pretty low-class of you to condescend by feigning “pity”. I think it says more about you than it does about the people you are attacking.
Dude, go back and read the posts which you think are high horsed. Of course everyon has an agenda. Of course everyone is entitled to it. The question is how does it effect thier debating technique. Do they make bold assertions and refuse to listen to alternative evidence or interpretation? Do they present a reasonable case for their agenda and listen to alternatives? Or, do they simply demonize their opponents and ignore all evidence? As you said, one of those things is not like the others.
I wish any of my opponents would bring some evidence, it would be quite refreshing. Bust out the science on them and they scatter like roaches when the lights are flipped on.
Why do some people claim no stakes to a particular party, but refuse to pay any attention to the FACTS that would harm a particular party while homing in on the other? My boss can be such a moron about this. His head is buried to his shoulders in the sand.
He claims to not be affiliated to any major party. He hates government, hates repubs, hates dems more. He bought the Swift Jokers For Truth book and has bought it hook, line and stinker. He refuses to acknowledge that they’ve been discredited at all. Any of them. He said to me today, “since you said all of them have been discredited, if I can prove that there’s at least one of them who’s telling the truth, will you concede?” :rolleyes:
Since the book puts all of his preconceived notions about Kerry in one handy dandy package, it’s the winner. Of course, he didn’t bother to watch the news or pay any attention to stories regarding the Swifties and how full of shit they are.
I’d just like November to come and go so I can grieve and move on.
Couldn’t agree more. Couldn’t agree more. I don’t think I’ve had a bleaker political outlook in my entire life, including my callow undergraduate days in the Reagan/Bush era. It’s a choice between a craven and a sociopath. What’s ironic is, when I tell my friends I cast my ballot for a 3rd party candidate, they’ll tell me I threw my vote away. Like there’s any other option.
And, frankly, I don’t think Bush had anything to do with me being better off. If I were worse off, I wouldn’t think it was his fault either. If Kerry is elected, I expect to be better off or worse off 4 years hence based mainly on my own actions-- not on anything he would do.
Yeah, I guess. But if Gore were such a “a good, fine, decent man…who almost certainly would have stopped 9/11 before it happened”, why didn’t he do so in the eight years he was #2 in the previous administration?
And years during which by all accounts the research and planning was done. Where was Al then? He was neither stopping it nor even sending out a warning. Why? He didn’t have a clue, just like everyone else. So we’re back to asking what he would have “almost certainly” done during his 7 months in office to have kept the events of 9/11 from happening?
Well imagine all your personal problems compounded with a greater risk of terror attack. That’s what’s going to happen because Bush boy isn’t making us safer with his foolish escapades.
How about with less civil rights? Because they’re being stripped as we speak.
How about in a total environment of paranioa? Red alerts, brown alerts, plaid alerts? Soon you won’t be able to carry a backpack around to 50% of the places you go, mark my words.
You’re really coming off as condescending. You’re trying to paint anyone who has a strong opinion about Bush as some sort of frothing-at-the-mouth mental defective. Yet, ironically, you then say that you want to vote for Bush for no reason other than to anger people who dislike him. That’s not really very rational, is it?
And this one really takes the cake:
I don’t even want to count how many logical fallacies are contained in that little gem.
And as for DtC, I really have no idea what you’re off about. Maybe you need some links, because I think he makes a lot of good contributions to this forum. Did I miss all these “irrational” ones to which you refer? Perhaps the fact that you don’t happen to agree with his politics is coloring your judgment a little?
I stay out of political threads because I find the vitriol disgusting and the minutiae tedious, but I’ve got some pretty strong opinions myself. I have some legitimate reasons for holding the beliefs I do.
Let’s tackle one of the nastiest subjects first, abortion. I’m afraid I sincerely believe that people who hold the most extreme anti-abortion belief, that abortion should always be illegal, even if the life of the woman is in danger, are calling for a law which would require me to die. You see, I’m a woman who never intends to have children and who’s now at an age where any pregnancy would be an at-risk one. I’ve also had sex and intend to continue doing so. I’m aware that any sex act in which the penis enters the vagina can result in pregnancy, regardless of the precautions taken. We’ve got some Dopers here who’ve learned that the hard way. While I consider abortion always morally wrong, I don’t believe it’s the government’s place to tell me I must die because it’s the baby’s life or mine.
I also don’t like the tax cuts or, more precisely, the huge deficit which has resulted from the tax cuts. You see, under the Reagan administration, Social Security was always expected to run out around the time I’ll be old enough to be eligible for it. I’ll do whatever I have to to survive – that’s why I’m currently working as an administrative assistant, not a programmer – but I would like to get just a little out of a program I’ve paid so much into. Running a large deficit reduces the likelihood of that happening.
I’m also not sure either party at the moment understands what it’s like to be me. I’m an ordinary working stiff. I got laid off from a well-paying programming job two years ago who took work as an administrative assistant when my unemployment benefits were running out and I wasn’t getting any offers for programming. Since then, I’ve seen gas prices rising and my employer was going to have to increase the cost of our health insurance by $100 per month until I pointed out that, at that rate, I simply would not be able to afford it on my salary. Fortunately, my employer was able to negotiate a plan which only resulted in a $20 per month increase. The money I got back from the tax cut has been eaten up by increasing gas prices and health insurance, and I’m pretty much middle class.
The decisions our politicians make directly affect my life and my freedom. That’s why I get passionate about them sometimes and why there are some things which, with all due respect to those who disagree, I simply cannot support.
