What is the point in a general discussion, if not to generalize? 
(The only people I know who reached the top 5% got divorced, and now live paycheck to paycheck. ) I should back track a little. Those who make $75K plus generally save something in their 401k plans, but otherwise live paycheck to paycheck and struggle to buy a house. (It doesn’t help that their savings are taxed.) My point is that expenditures tend to rise to meet income. Surely you know someone who 'wastes" their top 5% income on the perks of having that income. Expensive cars, wine, women and song?
Personally, I don’t mind my federal income tax. I feel as a member of society, it is my obligation to contribute, and for some of that contribution to go to my protection in the form of a standing military, to help those less fortunate than me and for other social proggrams. Is there waste? Certainly - with any bureacracy there will be. Are some of my funds spent in ways I disagree with? Again, yes. But I would rather have welfare than debtor’s prisons and food stamps rather than children starving to death. I don’t feel our government owes any adult unlimited support. But I do believe that those that have are obliged to try to assist those that have not. Not by giving them everything, but by giving them the opportunity to become one of the “haves”. So I don’t complain about my taxes. In fact, I’m glad that I have the means to contribute.
StG
My father strongly believes in a system where we pay the taxes when we buy stuff. We pay the normal 7% (give or take) sales tax, plus an additional oooh… 10-17% extra for federal money. This seems a little idealistic to me. I agree, though, we can get the exact same money out of everyone in the US of A that we are getting now with much much simpler tax laws. In fact, why doesn’t the government just keep track of our spending and just send us a statement saying “You owe $40,000. Gimme your dough, bud.” They should do the calculating FOR us, instead of sending out forms that tell us how to do it wrong and then hunt us down for oweing $2.03. Some people might have a problem with the government keeping track of what we buy (OH DEAR! they know something about their own citizens!), but to keep some [sarcasm]oh so much deserved privacy[/sarcasm] we could just classify our purchases and incomes and expendatures into categories like “Health, Income, Bonus, etc.” But hey, I don’t pay taxes yet, so what do I know?
The problem I have with Income tax is that it is so ambiguous.
Rarely do two people come up with the same return when asked to figure out what someone owes. IOW, you can give your return info to five different tax “experts” and get five different returns.
Also, the penalties for mistakes, fraud, late returns, no return vary wildly and don`t seem to have any fluidity.
The tax code is way too complicated for any one person to comprehend.
Simplify the process, and make it more fair, and I`ll support it.
I don’t mind paying taxes. I believe I get benefits from society that are paid for by various taxes, income as well as sales, property, etc, etc, etc.
I do mind that Social Security is taken out of my income to support today’s old people, and nobody really believes it’s going to support me when I retire. I also mind that the government thinks it has a responsibility to make people save for retirement. I have an IRA. You don’t? Then why am I paying you so much of my income?
I don’t mind paying for other social programs, however.
I do mind paying for programs I don’t like, and for waste and graft and all sorts of things, and that I pay so much for the military but there’s not much I can do about issues I really care about save voting, letter-writing, all that, while I pay for the parts I don’t like totally automatically. I do, however, realize that part of having a large government means that you don’t always agree with how your tax dollars are spent.
What really pisses me off, though, isn’t if or that rich people are taxed too little, it’s that they don’t pay taxes. Rich people have fancy tax accountants and lawyers that get them out of paying as much of what they’re supposed to pay as I do. I do my taxes myself, I read all the instructions and get off what I can, but I can’t afford the measures the wealthy can take. If I felt the wealthiest citizens were actually paying the percentage they are assigned, it wouldn’t bother me so much. Hell, you’re allowed to be wealthy - life, liberty, and property, right? That shouldn’t entitle you to basically cheat, though.
Also, this crap is unnecessarily complicated. They took my money. They know how much I made, and how much interest I got, all that. Why don’t they just send it back to me? Why must I file if I have no unusual circumstances? I appreciate the recent changes that have made it easier - I can download the forms now, and I’m for the first time filing free online. But still, why do I have to ask for my money back that shouldn’t have been taken from me?
And why aren’t W-2 forms standardized? I have two of them, and that was just a real pain to find all the numbers.
I don’t mind paying taxes. I believe I get benefits from society that are paid for by various taxes, income as well as sales, property, etc, etc, etc.
I do mind that Social Security is taken out of my income to support today’s old people, and nobody really believes it’s going to support me when I retire. I also mind that the government thinks it has a responsibility to make people save for retirement. I have an IRA. You don’t? Then why am I paying you so much of my income?
I don’t mind paying for other social programs, however.
I do mind paying for programs I don’t like, and for waste and graft and all sorts of things, and that I pay so much for the military but there’s not much I can do about issues I really care about save voting, letter-writing, all that, while I pay for the parts I don’t like totally automatically. I do, however, realize that part of having a large government means that you don’t always agree with how your tax dollars are spent.
What really pisses me off, though, isn’t if or that rich people are taxed too little, it’s that they don’t pay taxes. Rich people have fancy tax accountants and lawyers that get them out of paying as much of what they’re supposed to pay as I do. I do my taxes myself, I read all the instructions and get off what I can, but I can’t afford the measures the wealthy can take. If I felt the wealthiest citizens were actually paying the percentage they are assigned, it wouldn’t bother me so much. Hell, you’re allowed to be wealthy - life, liberty, and property, right? That shouldn’t entitle you to basically cheat, though.
Also, this crap is unnecessarily complicated. They took my money. They know how much I made, and how much interest I got, all that. Why don’t they just send it back to me? Why must I file if I have no unusual circumstances? I appreciate the recent changes that have made it easier - I can download the forms now, and I’m for the first time filing free online. But still, why do I have to ask for my money back that shouldn’t have been taken from me?
And why aren’t W-2 forms standardized? I have two of them, and that was just a real pain to find all the numbers.
I think that my main problem in paying income taxes is that they are really only paid by the the top 50% of workers. So our system here is skewed towards forcing half of the workers to subsidise the other half of workers. A fair system would distribute the load much more equally.
And then on top of that, it is the ones who don’t pay taxes who get the welfare benefits, AFDC, food stamps, WIC, subsidized housing, subsidized education, free school breakfast, free school lunch, Head Start, and many other programs. You would think that in a fair society, that those who paid the most in taxes would get the lions share of these welfare benefits, but here in this country, the less you contribute, the more you can take out.
Well, Hermann, while I do agree that those who pay the least do draw more direct benefits, I’d have to say that is part of why we have the system we do.
I don’t want to leave a down-on-their-luck person freezing and hungry by the wayside. We are a nation that can feed our populace. But once I’ve gotten you fed and out of the elements, I want to see you produce, at least a little bit, before I commit too many more dollars towards your continuing existence.
What has alienated many from our system of welfare is the perception that those on the receiving end are demanding more than what many of us think is required too jump start your life.
I don’t have a problem with other taxes. Propety taxes, taxes on goods, taxes on services, these all are like a necessary evil. But you’re getting something in return.
Income tax is a striaght up jack. You don’t even pay them, they TAKE them from you. You don’t get shit for it, it’s just “hey I worked my ass off for this money” POW, now I have 25% less left.
And while the lower classes pay less of a percentage, it means a whole lot more to them. Having a hundred thousand dollars and losing 30% means you still have 70K - quite a lot of money. Having $4 and losing 10% means you can’t even buy a pack of smokes.
I like what cecil has to say:
“In short, the U.S. is at the low end of the scale in terms of tax bite. While I don’t want to get into the question of whether taxpayers are getting their money’s worth, as a rule you get what you pay for. One reason Hong Kong’s taxes are low is that it has few social services. One reason they’re higher elsewhere is that most developed countries pick up health-care costs, while the U.S. leaves that to the private sector.”
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/001201.html
It depends on what you get. Also, that page compares tax rates around the world.
StGermain,
I agree with you while disagreeing with you…
Agree 100% on the military…it can only be properly funded through Federal taxes.
I disagree strongly on the social end.
There is indeed a great need to help those who for whatever reason can’t provide for themselves. However, I think that doing it through the Federal government is the least cost-effcient way to accomplish it.
I’m of the opinion that the $1000+ per year I give to local charities and food banks does more good for more people than the $12,000+ I send to Uncle Sugar every year.