# What is it with dwarves and mining and jewels? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 19, 2003, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-dwarves-and-mining-and-jewels/149589 "2003-01-19T04:16:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-dwarves-and-mining-and-jewels/149589/1 "2003-01-19T04:16:14Z")
I just realized that fictional dwarves mining for jewels and gold aren’t limited to Tolkien’s work; they’re also at it in _Snow White and the Seven Dwarves_, or at least in the old Disney film version. What’s the deal? Were the dwarves miners in the original fairy tale? If not, did Tolkien borrow the idea from Disney? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-dwarves-and-mining-and-jewels/149589/2 "2003-01-19T04:19:18Z")
The original concept of dwarves as miners comes from Norse mythology, which in turn, I believe, borrowed heavily from Tolkien. ---
**Author:** ![ninevah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/46a35a/32.png) [@ninevah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ninevah)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-dwarves-and-mining-and-jewels/149589/3 "2003-01-19T04:52:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\*The original concept of dwarves as miners comes from Norse mythology, which in turn, I believe, borrowed heavily from Tolkien. \*\* I think you mean that Disney borrowed from Tolkien who borrowed from Norse Mythology, rather than Norse mythology borrowing from Tolkien. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-dwarves-and-mining-and-jewels/149589/4 "2003-01-19T05:05:34Z")
No – **Brutus** probably meant it the way he wrote it. After all, according to [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=157140), Tolkien travelled through time and ripped off Harry Potter, so naturally the Norse would have done the same to Tolkien. ---
**Author:** ![Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-dwarves-and-mining-and-jewels/149589/5 "2003-01-19T05:25:23Z")
There seems to be a lot of [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2871199) going around lately. Perhaps it’s a new strain of humor flu? [sub]C’mon, people, _everyone_ borrowed heavily from Tolkien. I read all about it in the Weekly Midnight Star.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-dwarves-and-mining-and-jewels/149589/6 "2003-01-19T05:48:11Z")
As for “why are dwarfs/dwarves always portrayed as underground miners?”, well: Tunnelling out a mine takes a lot of time and effort. And the more material you have to remove to make the tunnel, the more time and effort it’s going to take. If your miners are only 4 feet tall, you won’t have to make the tunners as large! ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-dwarves-and-mining-and-jewels/149589/7 "2003-01-19T06:03:36Z")
Um… actually, it goes clear back to Scandinavian myth. In Norse mythology, the dwarves forged Thor’s hammer, Mjolnir, as well as all the magic cutlery used by the Gods and the giants. They were such excellent jewelers, they actually created a head of hair of spun gold that actually took root on Thor’s wife’s head and grew! In Germanic myth, a dwarf whose name I forget raised the hero Siegfried for the sole purpose of slaying a dragon with a magic sword that the dwarf forged for Siegfried. The Germans also had a kind of goblin/dwarf critter called a coblynau, who favored mines and mining. Doubtless all these sources just stole it all from Tolkien. ---
**Author:** ![ninevah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/46a35a/32.png) [@ninevah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ninevah)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-dwarves-and-mining-and-jewels/149589/8 "2003-01-19T06:39:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wang-Ka \* > \*\*Doubtless all these sources just stole it all from Tolkien. \*\* :smack: of course! See, I was thinking with my sensibility hat. Clearly, I should have known better. ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-dwarves-and-mining-and-jewels/149589/9 "2003-01-19T15:43:57Z")
Thanks, Wang-Ka. Somehow I had a feeling it was from an ancient myth, if Tolkien used it. Now I’m starting to get interested in Norse mythology. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-dwarves-and-mining-and-jewels/149589/10 "2003-01-19T15:50:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wang-Ka \* > \*\*The Germans also had a kind of goblin/dwarf critter called a coblynau, who favored mines and mining. > \*\* I always thought those things were called _kobolds_. ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-dwarves-and-mining-and-jewels/149589/11 "2003-01-19T15:54:52Z")
[I already asked this question about a month ago.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=151889). Got some fairly decent answers too. ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-dwarves-and-mining-and-jewels/149589/12 "2003-01-19T16:39:55Z")
And thanks to you, too, Euty. Yes, your thread was very informative and I should have searched before posting. I am of Norwegian ancestry, so I’m a bit peeved at myself for being so ignorant of this. Time to go to the ol’ library and get a tome of Scandinavian mythology. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-dwarves-and-mining-and-jewels/149589/13 "2003-01-19T16:43:58Z")
“Kobold” is, I think, an anglicization of “coblynau”. If you look up both critters, you get pretty similar descriptions. ---
**Author:** ![Einmon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Einmon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Einmon)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-dwarves-and-mining-and-jewels/149589/14 "2003-01-19T17:33:52Z")
Since I am German, I can answer you that yes, there is a “kobold” in German mythology. It’s not a miner itself but a small being that plays tricks on miners. Apparently the name of the mineral [Cobalt](http://www.vanderkrogt.net/elements/elem/co.html) derives from the term… Never heard of “coblynau”, though. Sounds rather Welsh or something. ---
**Author:** ![Forbin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5e9695/32.png) [@Forbin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Forbin)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-dwarves-and-mining-and-jewels/149589/15 "2003-01-19T21:12:43Z")
In Wagner’s “Siegfried” Act 1, Scene 2, Wotan is asked by Mime , “Who dwells in the depths of the Earth?” He answers, “the dwarves.” I could only find libretti in German, sorry. > [@](#): > > Mime > (sammelt sich zum Nachdenken) > Du rührtest dich viel > auf der Erde Rücken, > die Welt durchwandert’st du weit; > nun sage mir schlau: > welches Geschlecht tagt in der Erde Tiefe? > > Wanderer > In der Erde Tiefe tagen die Nibelungen: > Nibelheim ist ihr Land. > Schwarzalben sind sie; > Schwarz-Alberich hütet’ als Herrscher sie einst! > Eines Zauberringes zwingende Kraft > zähmt’ ihm das fleißige Volk. > Reicher Schätze schimmernden Hort > häuften sie ihm: > der sollte die Welt ihm gewinnen. > Zum zweiten was frägst du, Zwerg? The opera “Das Rheingold” expounds on this topic much more. ---
**Author:** ![Toffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e19adc/32.png) [@Toffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toffe)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-dwarves-and-mining-and-jewels/149589/16 "2003-01-19T22:55:12Z")
**pugluvr** : For Norse mythology, I recommend reading “Myths of the Norsemen” by Roger Lancelyn Green. It’s reasonably well-written, widely available, and has all the best myths and legends and several more. My only pet peeve is the translitteration of the names, but hey. I’ve read several other great books of myths and legends, some with the lesser-known heroic stories, but the ones I read in English I can’t remember the names of and the ones in Danish or Swedish I just don’t think were translated. The sagas themselves are great fun too. For a fantastic novel on the Vikings, which has no mythology in it except as part of the culture shown, read “The Long Ships” by Frans G. Bengtsson. I don’t know how good the English translation is, but the Swedish version is a classic and is basically a household name. The book is very interesting, exciting, and hilarious. OK, end of shameless plugs. Enjoy your reading! ---
**Author:** ![c\_carol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e79b87/32.png) [@c\_carol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/c_carol)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2003, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-dwarves-and-mining-and-jewels/149589/17 "2003-01-20T03:48:05Z")
pugluvr, this may help answer your question: [http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/lossiel.htm](http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/lossiel.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2003, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-dwarves-and-mining-and-jewels/149589/18 "2003-01-20T03:55:59Z")
Hey, Norse mythology makes GREAT reading! And I could be wrong about the Coblynau; maybe they’re the Welsh dwarves, not the German ones. I know the Welsh had their own dwarves, but I thought they were called “Tommyknockers”, which is not a Welsh word. I was pretty sure the Germans had their own mine gnomes, though… ---
**Author:** ![Nocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9fc348/32.png) [@Nocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nocturne)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2003, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-dwarves-and-mining-and-jewels/149589/19 "2003-01-20T04:48:20Z")
**Wang-Ka** , the Tommyknockers and the Coblynau are both Welsh in origin, but I believe they’re a little different. The Tommyknockers seem to be the dwarves/spirits that knock on the walls of the mine just before a collapse. The Coblynau are generally good, knocking on the walls to signify heavy ore content. The Coblynau: [http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/folklore/cobl\_cwn.html](http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/folklore/cobl_cwn.html) ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-dwarves-and-mining-and-jewels/149589/20 "2003-01-21T03:16:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Einmon \* > \*\*Since I am German, I can answer you that yes, there is a “kobold” in German mythology. > > It’s not a miner itself but a small being that plays tricks on miners.\*\* Ah! Sort-of the mining equivalent of a **gremlin** , then?