# What is it with fundies and homos? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 22, 2003, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-fundies-and-homos/208939 "2003-10-22T17:38:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-fundies-and-homos/208939/41 "2003-10-23T01:18:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shade \* > The first answer is that fundies (or at least, gay-bashing fundies) think being gay, or at least gay sex, is wrong; and a lot of people don’t. They react to this the way anyone would when a significant proportion of the population supports something you think is wrong. > > Secondly, _why_ do they think being gay is wrong? Answers I can envisage include the following. (1) It’s a sin - well, that’s pretty circular. (2) It says so in the bible - it says a lot of things that people claim are misinterpreted, withdrawn by Jesus, etc. Unless someone can explain clearly why the few references to homosexuality are more important than the stuff about shellfish and so on, I think this is just a rationalisation. (3) Some fundies are bigoted like everyone else, but people who are fundie and anti-gay are a lot more noticable. (4) Inertia - we’re brought up with a set of beliefs and with a handy bible to justify them, they’re perpetuated. > > Anyone want to wade in with a better analysis? How about someone who thinks homosexuality is wrong, but can explain why clearly and politely. (I used to know a guy - who was really nice - who I think could. So there are some.) I could answer in part, but I think the whole point of the op is not why ‘fundies’ disagree or agree, but why they are drawn to the threads. What threads? I don’t know, but it’s a well known fact that they are, even if we don’t know what they are, and any attempt to try and find out is futile, as it’s not required in Great Debate to prove what you are debating about. That’s just the feeling I get from the op, although I would love to be proven wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-fundies-and-homos/208939/42 "2003-10-23T01:33:25Z")
**Svt** I don’t think the question was why are they drawn to _threads_, _per se_ as much as why are so many fundamentalist Christians so preoccupied with homosexuality in general. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-fundies-and-homos/208939/43 "2003-10-23T02:25:39Z")
[Moderator Hat ON] Lissener, if someone says they don’t like a certain nickname, I would advise you not to continue to use it in this forum. Attack the argument, not the poster. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-fundies-and-homos/208939/44 "2003-10-23T02:52:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Most debates that touch on the issue of homosexuality eventually trail off to a simplistic two-sided shouting match between fundamentalist christians and homosexuals. I understand why we homos often feel compelled to participate in such discussions, but what is it that so fascinates fundamentalists about homosexuality? Why is it such a pet issue for so many of them? By what twist of logic do they even consider it even to be remotely relevant to them and the lifestyle they have chosen? I’m going to grant your first premise, that threads about homosexuality turn into a shouting match between the “homos” and “fundies.” I don’t know for sure that’s it’s true because you haven’t deemed to provide any links, and **Svt4Him** claims to have supplied links that show that it isn’t. But let’s say that it’s true. I would hazard to guess that not _all_ fundamentalists are drawn to these debates. I think there are a few rabid individuals who are noisy enough to create that impression. And, it happens to be a flashpoint in our culture today. Ten years ago it was abortion; before that is was the sexual revolution; and so on. I would submit that most Christians who believe homosexual behavior to be wrong – fundamentalist or not – _aren’t_ particularly fascinated by homosexuality and _don’t_ go out of their way to get into debates – or shouting matches – about it. It just seems that way to you (and others who are passionate about the topic) because the ones that do are vocal and they disagree with you. So try to paint with a finer brush, you’ll end up with a more accurate picture. ---
**Author:** ![Ashleigh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@Ashleigh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashleigh)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-fundies-and-homos/208939/45 "2003-10-23T02:52:51Z")
Personally, I think they’re nuts about homosexuals because they can’t really get away with saying black people are evil, or women are evil anymore. (Note the “can’t really”. They still do stick it in when they get the chance. I got some literature from a Witless recently that talked about how a woman should provide services to a man, unless both agreed to abstain. There’s a lovely loophole for ya.) Everyone’s evil except the white, christian males. What I heard (sorry I can’t back up where I heard this. Probably American Atheists or something similar.) is homosexuality was declared verboten so they would breed more Christians. If the men are getting their action from other men, there’s less chance they’ll knock their wives up. More births = more Christians. And that wonderful banning is still there, along with no rare steaks or cotton/poly blend. Which somehow aren’t as important anymore. What good is it to be a fundamentalist if there’s nothing to complain about? If everything were fine and dandy, there’d be no need for fundies. Homosexuals are largely the target. Why…? I couldn’t tell you, I can’t begin to fathom the fundie mind. But personally I think they just need someone to hate, and it’s something they can find a line in the bible about. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-fundies-and-homos/208939/46 "2003-10-23T02:56:53Z")
**Ashleigh** just reminded me of something I forgot to say – I see a lot more negative and unfair stereotypes aimed at fundamentalists on these boards than I do of homosexuals (although there’s a fair share of that also). **Ash** , you forgot to mention how they eat their babies too. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-fundies-and-homos/208939/47 "2003-10-23T02:58:29Z")
I’m wondering if this is a bit of a straw man. To me, it doesn’t appear that most debates on homosexuality go this way. I may be wrong, though. ---
**Author:** ![Super\_Gnat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Super\_Gnat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Super_Gnat)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-fundies-and-homos/208939/48 "2003-10-23T04:14:40Z")
I’m a fundamentalist, and I don’t think I’ve ever argued against homosexuality in a thread here. I was involved in one or two homosexuality threads in the Pit, in which I took no stance whatsoever. I don’t think the church should sanction it, but I don’t have any particular problem with gay marriage being made legal. **lissener** , you can’t get mad when people call for cites. Despite my anecdotal evidence to the contrary, there are some fundamentalist Christians who spend great amounts of time and money decrying homosexuality. Just do a quick Google search on “Jerry Falwell homosexuality” and post the first few websites you get. Or look through some old GD and Pit threads about homosexuality and post evidence from them. Then you can deride **Svt4Him** as much as you want. BTW, why are _some_ fundamentalists so consumed about homosexuality? Partially because it’s the “it” thing to be against, as someone said (I can’t seem to find that post). Partially because, as **Squink** said, it’s an easy scapegoat. As a sin that they themselves are not tempted toward, they find it easier to condemn (as opposed to, say, adultery). And partially because they are worried about homosexuality being seen as “right” in ten or twenty years, the same way that divorce and premarital sex are seen as being “right” now. So they want to nip this thing in the bud (or as close to the bud as they can get). ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-fundies-and-homos/208939/50 "2003-10-23T05:17:39Z")
**lissener** , I must appologize, as my last post wasn’t needed. I’m sorry, and honestly I am not trying to diss or insult you. If you know my belief, and have a problem with me being Christian, I can’t change that. But if I’ve ever said something offensive, I’m sorry, and I will honestly try not to again, as it isn’t my intent. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-fundies-and-homos/208939/51 "2003-10-23T05:34:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\*Wait. > > The abortion debate is at least a discussion, depending on where you draw the “life” line, of life and death. How can that possibly compare to who I’m happy spending my time with? \*\* Excuse me for agreeing with you, pal. Your OP is about “fundies”. Any debate on abortion with people who call themselves Chrstian Fundamentalists will not be about where to draw the line. For them, there is **no** line. That was the point. ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-fundies-and-homos/208939/52 "2003-10-23T05:38:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Super Gnat \* > **lissener** , you can’t get mad when people call for cites. Despite my anecdotal evidence to the contrary, there are some fundamentalist Christians who spend great amounts of time and money decrying homosexuality. Just do a quick Google search on “Jerry Falwell homosexuality” and post the first few websites you get. Or look through some old GD and Pit threads about homosexuality and post evidence from them. Then you can deride **Svt4Him** as much as you want. I’m not actually looking to be derided, I really do want a link. I would have to ask that it be in GD, as the op did mention debates, and the pit isn’t known for it’s great debating style, IMO. And Jerry Falwell hasn’t ever replied to a thread in GD, as far as I can see. But I’m not here to defend it, as I don’t even know what ‘it’ is. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-fundies-and-homos/208939/53 "2003-10-23T05:52:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Member \* > \*\*Leviticus 20:13-Thou shall not lie down with a man as with a woman, it is an abomination. > > Pretty simple, direct command from the Bible\*\* However, if you’re a Christian, then those guidelines from Leviticus were nullified by Jesus. Otherwise, you’d be commanded by Leviticus to not only avoid think of homosexuality as an abomination – no, that’s just the beginning – Leviticus commands you to **kill** homosexuals. Also, you are commanded to kill adulterers. Also, children who curse their parents have to be killed. Surely you’re not going to do this, but why not? The same Leviticus that tells you that homosexuality is an abomination also commands you to kill people. You can’t pick and choose. That would be twisting the book to fit with what you already believe, and that’s just plain dishonest. No, either you take the bad with the “good”, of you discard the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-fundies-and-homos/208939/54 "2003-10-23T05:56:48Z")
Oh, and **Member** , I was using the generic “you” in my post, as a way of referencing anyone who actually states the “homosexuality is an abomination because of Leviticus” as their reason for being anti-gay. It wasn’t until after I posted that I realized that it looks like I was addressing you directly. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-fundies-and-homos/208939/55 "2003-10-23T07:52:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe Random \* > \*\*However, if you’re a Christian, then those guidelines from Leviticus were nullified by Jesus. Otherwise, you’d be commanded by Leviticus to not only avoid think of homosexuality as an abomination – no, that’s just the beginning – Leviticus commands you to **kill** homosexuals. Also, you are commanded to kill adulterers. Also, children who curse their parents have to be killed. \*\* Interesting, then, that Judaism doesn’t seem to produce the same sort of rabid denunciations of homosexuality (or, indeed, many of the other things condemned in Leviticus) that you see in Christianity. (Or maybe it does, and it just doesn’t get the same level of mainstream attention?) FYI, [this](http://www.universalway.org/Foreign/judaism-homo.html) looks like a useful summary of the official views of the various types of Judaism on homosexuality. And why is it that every time this argument comes up, it’s always: “Leviticus says it’s bad.” “But Leviticus says other things are bad too.” “All right, then: _Paul_ says it’s bad.” Next time, let’s just jump straight to Paul and skip the first two steps. ---
**Author:** ![WILLASS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/54ee81/32.png) [@WILLASS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WILLASS)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-fundies-and-homos/208939/56 "2003-10-23T09:47:11Z")
Ever hear the quote ‘The Lady doth protest too much methinks’? I have always suspected anyone who rattles on and on in a homophobic manner to be secretley harbouring thoughts of going to see Shirley Bassey in concert. My two cents (of the Euro variety) ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-fundies-and-homos/208939/57 "2003-10-23T09:48:23Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Member** _ > Leviticus 20:13-Thou shall not lie down with a man as with a woman, it is an abomination. Leviticus 20:9 > [@](#): > > If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head. Leviticus 20:10 > [@](#): > > If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife-with the wife of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. Leviticus 20:18 > [@](#): > > If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their people. Why does 13 get special treatment? Then, of course, there are the teachings of Christ as to what in the law is most important. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-fundies-and-homos/208939/58 "2003-10-23T12:44:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe Random \* > \*\*However, if you’re a Christian, then those guidelines from Leviticus were nullified by Jesus. Otherwise, you’d be commanded by Leviticus to not only avoid think of homosexuality as an abomination – no, that’s just the beginning – Leviticus commands you to **kill** homosexuals. Also, you are commanded to kill adulterers. Also, children who curse their parents have to be killed. Actually, there are Christians in the modern USA who want to return to such practices. At least some of the “Reconstructionists” want this. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-fundies-and-homos/208939/59 "2003-10-23T13:40:01Z")
I think you might get close to it if you asked a fundie to define what a typical gay is like. Most of them would say, “Urban, wealthy, likes opera, liberal, educated, physically weak and cowardly, drives an expensive European car, eats out a lot in expensive restaurants, lives in an apartment, keeps small yippy dogs not much bigger than a rat.” if the description were more like, “rural, likes country music, conservative, not highly educated, strong and brave, drives a pickup, likes home cooking, lives in a farmhouse, keeps hound dogs …” I think fundies would feel a little different about gays. Now, I am not asserting the validity of this stereotype, I’m just betting it’s a fairly widespread stereotype among fundies. The sexual yuck factor is there, too. We also can’t ignore the political opportunism to be had by attacking a political outgroup whose sexual practices are repugnant to one’s membership. I suspect this is why fundies have also been attacking BDSM events – writing letters threatening boycotts and such to hotels and convention centers that host such events. Same deal – attacking a sexual outgroup perceived to be largely urban and liberal. This may backfire ultimately, however, given that the Southern Baptist Convention is on record as requiring that a wife “submit” to her husband. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DirkGntly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DirkGntly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkGntly)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-fundies-and-homos/208939/60 "2003-10-23T13:42:18Z")
Here’s my take on this, take it for what it’s worth: Paul equated homosexuality with adultery and fornication. Why? Homosexuality could not be _legitimized_ through marriage (at least, not at that time). Adultery and fornication were condemned because they were acts outside of marriage. Though not exactly a part of this debate, the steps homosexuals are taking to legitimize their “lifestyle” through state-sanctioned marriage ceremonies is seen by fundamentalists as an assault on what makes marriage a “special” arrangement. Essentially, fundamentalists see sexual relations within a marriage context as acceptable, anything outside of that context is taboo. It has been mentioned that divorce, etc. are “accepted” now. It should be remembered that this, too, is a fairly recent phenomenon. Let’s not forget that King Henry’s split with the Catholic Church to establish the Church of England was over divorce, so it could be said it took _centuries_ for divorce to be seen as “acceptable” by society at large (extreme fundamentalists still don’t accept divorce - and the reasons why they are wrong there are for another thread, entirely). As for my personal take on the whole homosexuality and genetic links issue (it was mentioned earlier, so I’m mentioning it now), I see it this way: I, as a straight male, am predisposed to want to shag everything human and female, that I’m attracted to. Paul discourages such behavior. The same can be said for homosexuality. Though predisposed to such activities (genetically or otherwise), that activity is discouraged. Why fundamentalists are drawn to this? Like others have said - it’s the hot button of the moment, and they see it as yet another indicator of the moral decay of the society at large. - Dirk ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2003, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-fundies-and-homos/208939/61 "2003-10-23T13:57:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > \*\*I think you might get close to it if you asked a fundie to define what a typical gay is like. Most of them would say, “Urban, wealthy, likes opera, liberal, educated, physically weak and cowardly, drives an expensive European car, eats out a lot in expensive restaurants, lives in an apartment, keeps small yippy dogs not much bigger than a rat.” > > if the description were more like, “rural, likes country music, conservative, not highly educated, strong and brave, drives a pickup, likes home cooking, lives in a farmhouse, keeps hound dogs …” I think fundies would feel a little different about gays.\*\* "I think you might get close to it if you asked a homo to define what a typical fundamentalist is like. Most of them would say, “Rural, lower-to-middle class, likes guns, conservative, uneducated, intellectually weak and closed-minded, drives a pickup truck, goes to church twice a week, homeschools their kids, has a Jesus fish bumper sticker and a WWJD bracelet.” if the description were more like, “urban, likes rock music, politically independent, highly educated, tolerant of other views, drives a Nissan, likes going to movies and restaurants, lives in a townhouse, keeps fish, watches _South Park_ and roots for the Cubs…” I think homos would feel a little different about fundamentalists." Stereotypes cut both ways. My point is you can’t describe what “fundies” think about gays anymore than you can describe… what Democrats think of Republicans or what Hindus think about atheists. You’re basing your description on a small sample, while igoring the ones that don’t fit your description. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-fundies-and-homos/208939.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-fundies-and-homos/208939.md?page=4)