# What IS IT with vegetarians and meat-eaters? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 14, 2001, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-vegetarians-and-meat-eaters/93356 "2001-11-14T18:50:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![seawitch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@seawitch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seawitch)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-vegetarians-and-meat-eaters/93356/101 "2001-11-16T01:09:28Z")
I’m an omnivore. I have two different vegetarian friends. One is a charming person; when she and I go to lunch, we pick a mutually agreeable place and each order whatever we please. Neither of us comments on the other’s choice. It’s no different than going to lunch with a friend who has a food allergy or one who hates Chinese food. The other friend, when discussing food, preaches, prosletyzes, exaggerates, distorts facts, and behaves as if this makes her a better person. I will not eat with her, because I am dangerously close to hitting her with a brick. She often eats lunch alone; I wonder why? **Sartori** , you are displaying the exact behavior that so many people object to. It won’t win you any friends or converts. Also, please understand that a favorable book review does not qualify as a supporting factual cite. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-vegetarians-and-meat-eaters/93356/102 "2001-11-16T01:36:22Z")
\>\> - the amount of water used in the production of one average cow would be sufficient to float a destroyer. :: scratching head:: Yes, and…? Are the seas short of water to float destroyers? Last time I went sailing there seemed to be plenty of water to float destroyers. What kind of argument is this? Like the rest of that long list it sounds like bullshit to me. Lots of cattle produce lots of bullshit I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Gaspode](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gaspode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaspode)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-vegetarians-and-meat-eaters/93356/103 "2001-11-16T02:05:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satori \* > \*\*He _von Robinson_ is very credible - his books would not otherwise achieve the international respect and success that they do. \*\* As I have already pointed out, I have a whole series of books by a bloke called [von Daniken](http://www.daniken.com/e/index.html), all best-sellers published over forty years and all demonstrating that the Earth has been visited by aliens for millennia. I have another best-seller by a gentleman called Hovind that states that dragons are real and there’s one living in the Congo. All three of these men are crackpots to be sure, but all successful crackpots. You are aware of the logical fallacy of [appeal to authority](http://datanation.com/fallacies/aa.htm)?. Since you seem determined to post on these boards I suggest you familiarise yourself with it. It doesn’t wash around here and will be ignored for what it is every time you mention it. > [@](#): > > He is the founder of EarthSave International, which is an established and respected environmental organization and he continues to write books that enjoy the same success as his previous ones to this day. von Daniken was joined in his crusade by Charles Berlitz, head of the world famous Berlitz language school. von Daniken continued to write successful books for decades. that means little green men really did build the pyramids. Just more appeal to authority folks. No one seems to know who Robbins is or what his qualifications are. > [@](#): > > So you see, I’m not the only one who would recommend or speak favourably of a book by John Robbins. I also suggest that you become familiar with the logical fallacy of [appeal to popularity](http://datanation.com/fallacies/pop.htm). Comment ignored due to being ignorant and illogical. > [@](#): > > You have not discredited anything. Uh huh. So you make assertions that: Animals have a protein conversion ratio of 5% Animals have a 6.25% feed conversion efficiency I provide cites from respected, peer reviewed scientific journals and you still say that those figures haven’t been discredited. Like I said, you don’t base your beliefs on facts or science and that’s not real popular on a board that’s dedicated to fighting ignorance. > [@](#): > > All I am saying is that _von Robinson_ hasn’t made anything up either. And every single independent source says that he has made things up. Who should we believe, you and von Robinson, or the world’s entire academic community? > [@](#): > > Authors like _von Robinson_ challenge established fact. Authors like von Robinson, Von Daniken and Hovind ignore established fact without any logical cause. Science is all about challenging established fact using logic, facts and reasoning. Ignorance consists of ignoring those facts inconvenient to your own world view. > [@](#): > > And it’s also why so many people move mountains to descredit them. I’d hardly say that 5 minutes searching on Ovid was moving mountains. The man is so easy to discredit it didn’t even require me to leave my desk, much less move mountains. > [@](#): > > Are you familiar with Chomsky’s works, or do you accept the established views on american foreign policy based on what CNN or Colin Powell says? The difference is that von Robinson has strayed into the realm of science with his bullshit, and with science things can be indisputably disproved. The man’s assertions have been disproved within hours of being posted here and continue to be so with every post. > [@](#): > > Industry and government are clearly biased towards their own ends. How many scientists are independently funded? It’s no secret that when scientists discover something that doesn’t jive with whoever is paying them, that information doesn’t get out much. How independent are these journals you refer to?_and so on_ There you have it folks, the man believes that if the facts don’t fit his beliefs the facts have been derived as part of a massive conspiracy. But seriously sartori, how do we know it’s not you and von Robinson who are the conspirators? It’d be a whole lot more reasonable to have a small conspiracy of one organisation, one man and his followers than a worldwide conspiracy of governments. My God, I’m getting scared now. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > As Michael Parenti says, “History is written by those who can afford to write it. As Gaspode says, bullshit is written by those who can’t be bothered to research it. > [@](#): > > at least 1 source that isn’t more likely to be spewing corporate-based , albeit established , rhetoric. Yes Sartori. Tell me, whom would you accept as an impartial source not spewing rhetoric. Since farmers, doctors, scientists, politicians, teachers, lawyers and judges all seem out to get you and von Robinson who do you trust. Is your world view such that anyone who doesn’t support your views is part of the conspiracy to discredit them? You do know how paranoid that sounds don’t you? > [@](#): > > As for the extensiveness of John Robbins’ research, refer back to the above review of his latest book. What, Alan Alda, a has-been actor best known for playing a drunkard on TV in the seventies says a book is well researched and I should believe him? If the book is well researched stop dicking around give us the cites and tell us why his views clash with scientific results that have been reproduced routinely since the 920’s? You’ve had enough time to post an entire review, now post three little cites. Hell I’ll settle for one. Juts one cite for where he got those figure on animal feed conversion ratios or US grain production. > [@](#): > > People who set out to challenge “established “ ideas cannot afford anything less than exhaustive research. People who set out to preach a quasi-religious hippy lifestyle choice cannot afford to consider the evidence that contradicts them. > [@](#): > > …and if you want to find the varied sources he cites, get the book. The mans a proselytiser folks. This whole hijack has been pure spam to attempt to get educated intelligent people to buy a book that on the basis of three paragraphs has been totally discredited. > [@](#): > > You’ve been quite clear that you believe …von Robinson has lied. Whether I believe that is irrelevant. The scientific community believes that. > [@](#): > > government, industry, the press they own and the scientists and journals they fund are much more likely to (and very often do) lie to you, me and everyone else than one man who believes the earth is worth preserving. All hail the Messiah, for he hath come forth to lead us to a land of mil… (scratch that) tofu and soy milk. This blokes starting to remind me of Hiryuu now. > [@](#): > > Again, it is only your opinion that the facts I offered are ignorant and outright lies. No, it’s the opinion of the scientific community, the medical community, the governments of the world and so many other organisations I can’t be bothered to list them. You on the other hand have von Robinson and yourself. I think I’ll let people make up their own minds now that they’ve been presented with the facts and credentials of both sides. > [@](#): > > The same could easily be said for the citations you’ve offered Not easily, no. Not given that it requires a worldwide conspiracy of government, industry, media, educational facilities, doctors, researchers and so on. Not something I’d say easily, at least not with a straight face. > [@](#): > > Facts, as our conversation clearly illustrates, are subjectively understood at best. No, facts are facts. They don’t require understanding, just knowledge. You can draw whatever conclusions you like form the known feed conversion efficiencies of ruminants or the US corn harvest, but the facts are indisputable. > [@](#): > > I am very open to independent facts Yes, I can see that now. > [@](#): > > It is the vehement animosity and hostility you emit through your writing which amazes me. Animosity? Hostility? Vehemence? If this goes on much longer I’m going to take this to the Pit, then you’ll see vehemence, hostility and animosity. this forum’s moderated so I have to be polite and constrained. If you think this is hostile I suggest you back off now. Funnily enough a lot of people on these boards are hostile towards ignorance and quite vehement in their belief in the value of knowledge over ignorance. > [@](#): > > I’m into attempting to evolve ignorance into a perhaps more educated intelligence through open discussion and the free exchange of ideas. That has certainly not been evidenced by anything you’ve posted to date. > [@](#): > > I think much of the ignorance you yourself bemoan often comes from the acceptance of established fact and an unwillingness to question it. Not even close. Facts have to be accepted. It’s a fact that animals that were fed 00kg of feed put on 20kg. That’s a fact. Now von Robinson can say that they didn’t put on that weight. Whatever. The fact remains. Ignorance comes from a selective acceptance of facts and an unwillingness to embrace any information that contradicts with ones previous beliefs. > [@](#): > > Everything you’ve written leads me to think that you would accept the official line … Yep, that’s me. That’s what I’m known for around here and IRL. Towing the line, not upsetting people. A real PC, quite corporate clone all right. > [@](#): > > I encourage you to read and/or hear … before totally dismissing the ideas of someone like John Robbins or even me. \*\* Or I could just rely on 7 years of tertiary eduction in the Biological sciences including a Research Master’s degree and assume that von Robinson is a lying crackpot, and that you have swallowed everything he’s written. ---
**Author:** ![Gaspode](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gaspode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaspode)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-vegetarians-and-meat-eaters/93356/104 "2001-11-16T02:09:28Z")
Dale The Bold, Brilliant post. I’m going to have to plagiarise it sometime. Erislover and Crafter\_Man, Thank you. The respect is mutual. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-vegetarians-and-meat-eaters/93356/105 "2001-11-16T02:15:54Z")
> [@](#): > > **Dale The Bold:** First, food for cattle consumption can legally have “natural fertilizer” (In other words, manure) which comes from the cattle crapping themselves all winter --no cost, no energy. A possible environmental hazard? Nope, it’s stored in an above ground reservoir and extracted in the spring and fall to spread onto the fields. Uh, Dale, the nitrates in the slurry that is spread on the fields _do_ find their way into the water table. This is [pretty well established.](http://twri.tamu.edu/twripubs/WtrResrc/v12n1/text-4.html) Yes, steps are taken to _reduce_ the impact, but the impact is still there. > [@](#): > > Fourth, cows can eat alfalfa and grass and even those nasty “pickers” that grow in the field. Well, yeah, they _can_ eat grass. In fact, that’s what they’re supposed to eat. But feedlot operators don’t feed their cattle grass. They are fed a protein-supplemented grain feed, because the quality of the meat produced by animals fed this diet is _much more marketable_. Apart from being good grain that humans _could_ eat, it’s really [hard on the cattle](http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicles/5.17.01/cattle_diet.html) because their digestive systems are really meant for a graminacious diet. [quote] [ul][li]Bloat is caused by the slime of starch-fermenting bacteria that entraps fermentation gases. If cattle cannot burp and expel the gas, the rumen can compress the lungs and the animal suffocates. Some ionophores are highly effective in preventing bloat.[_]Acute rumen acidosis is caused by a sudden switch from forage to grain and the overgrowth of starch-fermenting, lactate-producing bacteria. When lactate accumulates, pH decreases (that is, acidity increases) drastically and the animal can die as water rushes from blood into the rumen.[_]Chronic acidosis is caused by an accumulation of normal fermentation acids (acetic, propionic and butyric acids). The animal does not die but stops eating until the pH increases. Cattle feeders counteract chronic acidosis by adding buffers to the rations. Up to half the soda bicarbonate produced in the United States is used in cattle feed. Lime also can be added to the ration.[_]Rumen ulcers occur because the rumen is not protected by mucous. Ulcers arise if the rumen pH remains low for more than a few hours. Bacteria such as Fusobacterium necrophorum can grow on the lactate and migrate through the ulcers into the blood.[_]Liver abscesses are caused by F. necrophorum that travel from rumen ulcers to the liver. Some 13 percent of livers from grain-fed beef have abscesses and are declared unfit for human consumption.[_]Lameness is caused by metalloproteinases that are released by inflamed rumen walls and travel via the blood to the hooves.[_]Sudden death can be caused by excess starch in the intestines and an overgrowth of Clostridium perfringens, a bacterium that produces a powerful enterotoxin.[/ul][/li][/quote] Because of all this, a grain diet increases the need for heavy use of antibiotics, which creates another host of problems. Still, Grain-Fed = Tastier beef, and more of it, so that’s what they’re fed. Saying that raising beef is efficient because cows _can_ eat grass is like saying that diesel engines have less fuel emissions because they _can_ run on vegetable-based fuel. They don’t. > [@](#): > > If cattle farming was as inefficient as so many people claim, then every farmer would have switched over to plants, and had done away with the animals. No one has said that it is unprofitable to raise animals for food. It’s not. It’s still not the most efficient way to feed a nation. That being said, _Tofu_ isn’t the most efficient use of soybeans. You puree the beans, boil them in plenty of water, strain it, and discard the pulp (_okara_). Now you have soymilk. You curdle the soymilk with epsom salts, drain off the whey, and press the curds. What’s left is _tofu_. Very inefficient - but worth it, if you’d rather eat _tofu_ than baked soybeans. (To be fair, I use the whey for soup stock, and some people even use the _okaru_, although I don’t bother with it. The texture is gross.) I choose to eat _tofu_ and other soya-protein products even though it’s “inefficient,” so I’m not about to criticize someone for eating steak because they like it better than bread. That’s just silly. People don’t starve because resources are not used to the fullest. People starve because of economics. Grain surplus is destroyed keep the prices up, so feeding less grain to cows isn’t going to end world hunger. ---
**Author:** ![Gaspode](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gaspode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaspode)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-vegetarians-and-meat-eaters/93356/106 "2001-11-16T02:34:00Z")
**Larry** I’m thinking you missed **Dale** ’s point. Meat production is a very efficient way to produce food under most circumstances. Just because some people choose to use inefficient production techniques does not mean we have to agree with **VeraGemini** ’s assertion that meat is an inefficient food source. Cattle can eat grass, they can eat alfalfa, they can eat Acacia leaves and meat production from those foods is very efficient. Yes their are environmental problems caused by feedlot waste, just as their are from vegan kosher breweries, orchards and grainfields. I think his point with using manure for fertiliser was that we can’t just discount the nergy savings of using meat as food and only calculate the costs, and then compare that to vegetabe production where we ignore the costs and only calculate the savings. By law cattle waste should be stored so that groundwater contamination is impossible just as by law pesticide spray drift should be minimised. Both types of agriculture have technical problems and deliberate actions making this impossible, but in context Dale’s comment that waste is stored baove ground is true. Accidents do of course occur and people do of course break the law but that doesn’t mean we can’t use the legal scenario as the standard. Most politicians probably take bribes too, but our benchmark for democracy is that politicians are accountable to the public via the ballot box. That’s the standard we use when we argue that democracy is the best form of government and I see nothing wrong with Dale using the legal standard as his benchmark for the best form of food production. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-vegetarians-and-meat-eaters/93356/107 "2001-11-16T02:35:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ITR champion \* > In his post on the first page, **Gaspode** said that vegetarians have “a nasty habit” of saying things that he doesn’t agree with, such as that vegetarian diets are healthier than others. Are vegetarian diets actually healthier? I would think it would depend on what you mean by diet? What is included in each, etc etc. I mean, I could stop eating meat, and then eat nothing but french fries, potato chips, chocolate cake and onion rings, couldn’t I? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Tenebras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@Tenebras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenebras)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-vegetarians-and-meat-eaters/93356/108 "2001-11-16T02:57:35Z")
but this made me laugh: > [@](#): > > From Gaspode: > > What, Alan Alda, a has-been actor best known for playing a drunkard on TV in the seventies says a book is well researched and I should believe him? If the book is well researched stop dicking around give us the cites and tell us why his views clash with scientific results that have been reproduced routinely since the 920’s? You’ve had enough time to post an entire review, now post three little cites. Hell I’ll settle for one. Juts one cite for where he got those figure on animal feed conversion ratios or US grain production. Yes, that’s right folks. Scientific results reproduced for well over a thousand years. Can’t argue with those results. Why, I was wondering where these figures came from, and then I happened upon Olaf the Spikeybearded Viking’s account of saving oodles of money and time on the pot by feeding grass to his cow and then eating ole’ Bessie, instead of mulching it up in his own guts… Er. Ok. I’ve had my happy joy moment. Way to be Gaspode. Stick it to the man. And stuff like that. Tenebras ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-vegetarians-and-meat-eaters/93356/109 "2001-11-16T03:35:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*Gaspode: \*\* **Larry** I’m thinking you missed **Dale** ’s point. Actually, I think you missed mine. I don’t disagree with Dale in substance. My point is:[ul][li]Yes, it _would_ be a somewhat more efficient use of grain to simply mill it and make it into bread.[sub](Dale’s argument relies on a model of beef-production that is not in practice.)[/sub]The “efficiency” of meat production is a red herring. Most people like to eat meat, so it’s worthwhile to use the energy & resources to produce it. The “That Grain Could Be Used To Feed The Starving” argument is ludicrous and not really worth debating. [Here](http://www.acsh.org/publications/priorities/0502/beef.html) is a good, objective debunking of it.[/ul][/li] > [@](#): > > **Dale The Bold:** I think farm animals are shockingly efficient. It is a fact that it takes nine pounds of grain to produce one pound of beef. This is the basis of the “Vegetarian Fundamentalist” argument of beef’s inefficiency. There is a value judgement implicit in that argument: That we would be “better off” if we just kept the nine pounds of grain. This is not necessarily so. > [@](#): > > \*\*Gaspode:\*\*Just because some people choose to use inefficient production techniques does not mean we have to agree with **VeraGemini** ’s assertion that meat is an inefficient food source. This seems like sophistry to me. Almost all beef produced for human consumption in North America is raised on feedlots. Economics dictate that that’s the way it’s going to stay, so it doesn’t make any sense to argue that you _could_ recycle lawn clippings for cattle-food. I think that this underlines the point of the OP - People tend to “take up sides” and stretch their arguments further than they ought to. (If it’s not clear, I _completely agree_ with everything that you’ve posted, with the exception of what I’ve quoted, and fundamentally agree with **Dale**.) ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-vegetarians-and-meat-eaters/93356/110 "2001-11-16T03:51:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gaspode \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by ITR champion \* > > In his post on the first page, **Gaspode** said that vegetarians have “a nasty habit” of saying things that he doesn’t agree with, such as that vegetarian diets are healthier than others > > No, what I said is they have a nasty habit of of making statemnts based on ignorance. Nothing to do with whether I agre with them or not. Tell me you vote Democrat, tell me you worship Satan, tell me you smoke crack, it’s all good. I don’t agree with any of it but you can state that as fact, just as you can state that you are vegetarian. Tell me you vote Democrat because if you don’t the world will run out oil and us Republicans are responsible for it, tell me you worship Satan because athiests amd Christians kill more animals, tell me you smoke crack because it’s healthier and you’re making statements based on ignorance.\*\* I’m not normally one to tell people what they should or shouldn’t eat and drink, but might I casually suggest that you try switching to decaf? Or at least reading my entire post before you respond? I did not say that vegetarian diets are always healthier than meat-based diets. I said that it’s an unsettled question, and that people should do a little research for themselves and make their own decisions. Most people who have posted in this thread and others agree with that standpoint. You, however, have declared with your supreme voice of authority that you have the one and only, absolutely, undeniably correct answer to this question, and that anybody who disagrees with you is an “ignorant jackass”. If you want to find somebody who apparently isn’t capable of debating this topic in a reasonable way, consult a mirror. ---
**Author:** ![Mudshark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f04885/32.png) [@Mudshark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mudshark)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-vegetarians-and-meat-eaters/93356/111 "2001-11-16T03:59:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kyla \* > \*\*I am a vegetarian, and am regularly harrassed by people about it. At a party, at work (one of my coworkers often calls me a “granola eater” with mocking disdain), at Dopefests, whatever. I don’t take it seriously and am not offended, but it does bug me when I see threads like this wherein meat eaters complain about how rude and pushy vegetarians are. I would _never_ tell anyone else how to eat - I think most people here, veggie and omnivore alike, would agree with me that it is extremely impolite to criticize another’s dietary choices. But veggies get stuck with the bad rap. \*\* I didn’t mean anything in my comments. I did say, “I hate it when vegetarians force me to try to be one too”, and that was not really the best thing. Of all the vegetarians I know, only one does that, so I am sorry if I offended you, Kyla and any other vegetarians. ---
**Author:** ![VeraGemini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e9bcb4/32.png) [@VeraGemini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VeraGemini)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-vegetarians-and-meat-eaters/93356/112 "2001-11-16T04:11:26Z")
**Gaspode** , did a vegetarian steal your lunch money once? I am sensing hostility… yeesh. Let’s start with diet. I used the word “probably” because there is no miracle diet that has absolutely, positively, 100% been proven “the best”. > [@](#): > > **Gaspode** : There is no impartial evidence that a balanced vegetarian diet is healthier than the “average” Western diet. How about the [American Cancer Society?](http://www.cancer.org/eprise/main/docroot/PED/content/PED_3_2X_Recommendations?sitearea=PED) From that page: “Choose most of the foods you eat from plant sources.” “Limit your intake of high-fat foods, particularly from animal sources.” Also from that page: > [@](#): > > Foods from animal sources remain major contributors of total fat, saturated fat, and cholesterol in the American diet. Although meats are good sources of high-quality protein and supply many important vitamins and minerals, consumption of meat–specially red meats (beef, pork, lamb)–has been linked to cancers at several sites, most notably colon and prostate. How much of the association between red meats and cancer is due to total fat or saturated fat, and how much is due to other constituents of meat or the diet is uncertain at present. For example, in addition to fat, mutagenic compounds such as heterocyclic amines, which are produced when protein is cooked at high temperature, may help explain the association between meat and colon cancer. > [@](#): > > **Gaspode** : Aside from the fact that vegetarians have about the same fat intake as non-vegetarians > [@](#): > > **Gaspode** : Vegetarian diets have nor been shown to reduce body weight. From the [American Heart Association](http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4777): > [@](#): > > According to The American Dietetic Association, “Vegetarian diets that are low in animal products are typically lower than nonvegetarian diets in total fat, saturated fat, and cholesterol…” Vegetarians appear in many studies to have a lower risk of obesity, coronary heart disease (which causes heart attack), high blood pressure, diabetes mellitus (di"ah-BE’teez or di"ah-BE’tis meh-LI’tis), and some forms of cancer. Neither one of those sites say that eating _some_ meat is bad for you, and neither did I. > [@](#): > > **Gaspode** : defining a western diet is near impossible I’ll grant you that. We could quibble endlessly about what constitutes an “average Western diet”, for my purposes here I mean “A diet that is high in saturated fats and refined sugars and low in complex carbohydrates and fiber.” > [@](#): > > **Gaspode** : and once you add the fact that by definition vegetarians are more conscious of their helath and what they eat you find that vegetarian diets are less healthy than the diets of health conscious meatatarians By who’s definition? This statement makes no sense. I repeat, what axe do you have to grind against vegetarianism? > [@](#): > > **Gaspode** : One cannot confuse the diet and the dieter which is why such studies are impossible to undertake and why their is no evidence for your comment. I have just posted evidence for my statement. Not enough? Give me time, I’m sure I can find lots more. > [@](#): > > **Gaspode** : evidence that eating no meat will have negative health effects including retardation in growth and brain development in children and iron deficiency in women. Cite? I will. From [CyberDiet](http://www.cyberdiet.com/modules/ew/nutrition/basics/vegetarian.html) > [@](#): > > There are two types of iron. Non-heme iron is the type of iron found in plant foods. It is not absorbed as well as heme iron, which is the type of iron found in meats. Absorption of non-heme iron in plant foods can be enhanced by eating a vitamin C rich food at the same meal. Vegetarian diets can provide adequate iron if the proper foods are eaten. From [Kidshealth](http://kidshealth.org/parent/nutrition_fit/nutrition/vegetarianism.html) > [@](#): > > The American Dietetic Association (ADA) says that appropriately planned vegan and lacto-ovo vegetarian diets can satisfy nutrient needs of infants, children, and adolescents and promote normal growth It is “hieously misleading” and pejorative of you to suggest that a vegetarian diet will lead to retardation of growth and brain development in children. I repeat, I have nothing against those who choose to eat meat. The problems start when you use unsupported statements to disparage those of us who choose not to. ---
**Author:** ![Gaspode](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gaspode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaspode)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-vegetarians-and-meat-eaters/93356/113 "2001-11-16T04:11:53Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Larry Mudd \* My point is:[list][li]Yes, it _would_ be a somewhat more efficient use of grain to simply mill it and make it into bread.[/li][/quote] Quite true, but Veragemini’s post ignored the fact that beef can be produced quite happily with no grain. That’s the reason why his/her statement that beef production is inefficient is erroneous. As I stated in my response to her, we can agree that producing meat by feeding cattle a predominantly grain-based diet is an inefficient way to produce food. Producing meat is horrendously efficient. We can take agricultural wastelands and produce high protein, patable food. It’s impossible to get any more efficient than that. > [@](#): > > The “efficiency” of meat production is a red herring. True, it’s also a lie. > [@](#): > > It is a fact that it takes nine pounds of grain to produce one pound of beef. This is the basis of the “Vegetarian Fundamentalist” argument of beef’s inefficiency. There is a value judgement implicit in that argument: That we would be “better off” if we just kept the nine pounds of grain. True, there is a value judgement. There is also an outright lie. It is no more a fact that it takes nine pounds of grain to produce one pound of beef than it is a fact that it takes 40 child slaves to make a floor rug. It can take nine pounds of grain to produce one pound of beef and it can takes 40 child slaves to make a floor rug. That is not to say that all, or even most, beef is made using grain or that most rugs are made using child slaves. I don’t forswear floor all floor rugs to end child labour and I don’t foreswear all beef to end feedlotting. A sensible person refuses feedlot beef and slave made floor rugs. > [@](#): > > This seems like sophistry to me. No, it’s not sophistry. It can take the body fat of a dozen executed prisoners to make 2 cakes of soap. It can take 3000, 0000 hectares of timber from European forests to power a house for 50 years, it can take the life of a Lithuanian child to perform a kidney transplant. Those things are all true (well my figures may be wrong, but you get the point). If I started saying that it does take the life of a Lithuanian child for people to get organ transplants, or that it does take human fat to make soap you wouldn’t be guilty of sophistry if you pulled me up. These people have a problem with feedlotting, that’s great, so do I. Arguments against feedlotting =/= arguments against meat. Inefficiency in feedlotting =/= inefficiency in beef production and soap production in Dachau =/= sopa production in Arkansas. > [@](#): > > it doesn’t make any sense to argue that you _could_ recycle lawn clippings for cattle-food. No, but it does make sense to say that you can, and in fact do, produce your beef using free-range methods or else purchase foreign beef that is free-range. This isn’t stuff that can potentially be done, this is stuff that has been done, is being done and will continue to be done. Arguing against meat consumption based on the performance of feedlots is like arguing against democracy based on Nixon, or against evolution based on the Piltdown man or against medicine based on thalidomide. It’s a special class of strawman, whereby the worst aspects of the worst case example of that which you oppose are projected onto the entire opposition. In short it is not a fact that it takes nine pounds of grain to produce one pound of beef just as it is not a fact that United States Presidents are corrupt, that the theory of evolution is based on frauds or that medicine causes birth defects. The word ‘some’ is very important in making all those sentences true and I really don’t think it’s sophistry to suggest that its ommision changes the meaning of the sentences dramatically. > [@](#): > > People tend to “take up sides” and stretch their arguments further than they ought to. An allegation I reject as applied to myself (well mostly). One can not argue that the meat industry is inefficient based on the feedlot industry any more than one can argue that negroes are violent criminals based on Mike Tyson. Both are examples of misplaced prejudice. Mike Tyson is a violent criminal, not negroes, and feedlots are inefficient, not beef production. Great link BTW. ---
**Author:** ![Hemlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Hemlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hemlock)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-vegetarians-and-meat-eaters/93356/114 "2001-11-16T04:35:17Z")
Ahem… The OP was “why do Vs and non-Vs get at each other?”, not “how do they, with examples?” 🙂 What bugs me is how vegetarians inconvenience omnivores, but not vice-versa. Whenever people have a Chinese or other “shared-dishes” restaurant meal with my V brother around, it’s a pain. Rather than take a bit of everything, like everyone else, he assumes the right to scoff too much of some dishes and none of the others, thus unbalancing everyone else’s meal. He and his V SO also expect special meals prespared for them at home. I will always eat anything they make - a meal without meat is no big deal - but is the opposite true? Nope. ---
**Author:** ![VeraGemini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e9bcb4/32.png) [@VeraGemini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VeraGemini)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-vegetarians-and-meat-eaters/93356/115 "2001-11-16T04:44:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hemlock \* > \*\*Ahem… The OP was “why do Vs and non-Vs get at each other?”, not “how do they, with examples?” 🙂 It is turning into that, isn’t it? 😉 > [@](#): > > \*\*What bugs me is how vegetarians inconvenience omnivores, but not vice-versa. > > Whenever people have a Chinese or other “shared-dishes” restaurant meal with my V brother around, it’s a pain. Rather than take a bit of everything, like everyone else, he assumes the right to scoff too much of some dishes and none of the others, thus unbalancing everyone else’s meal. > > He and his V SO also expect special meals prespared for them at home. I will always eat anything they make - a meal without meat is no big deal - but is the opposite true? Nope. \*\* Look at it this way. I don’t know what your brother and his sig-o’s motivations are, but if someone is a vegetarian for moral or religious reasons, then asking them to eat meat is asking them to compromise their values. ---
**Author:** ![Daowajan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@Daowajan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daowajan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-vegetarians-and-meat-eaters/93356/116 "2001-11-16T04:54:16Z")
As long as we’re even mentioning the OP: **Gaspode** , **Satori** , **VeraGemini** et al, please take this to the Pit. Or a particularly ugly GD thread. ---
**Author:** ![Mudshark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f04885/32.png) [@Mudshark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mudshark)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-vegetarians-and-meat-eaters/93356/117 "2001-11-16T04:54:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hemlock \* > \*\*Ahem… The OP was “why do Vs and non-Vs get at each other?”, not “how do they, with examples?” 🙂 > > What bugs me is how vegetarians inconvenience omnivores, but not vice-versa. > > Whenever people have a Chinese or other “shared-dishes” restaurant meal with my V brother around, it’s a pain. Rather than take a bit of everything, like everyone else, he assumes the right to scoff too much of some dishes and none of the others, thus unbalancing everyone else’s meal. > > He and his V SO also expect special meals prespared for them at home. I will always eat anything they make - a meal without meat is no big deal - but is the opposite true? Nope. \*\* Why should that bother you? If he is a vegetarian, why don’t you just let him eat the vegetables and you eat the meat. What’s the big deal? ---
**Author:** ![Daowajan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@Daowajan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daowajan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-vegetarians-and-meat-eaters/93356/118 "2001-11-16T04:55:30Z")
Now that we have a nice two-page example of HOW vegetarians and non-vegetarians piss each other off, would anyone like to get back into the WHY? ---
**Author:** ![Mudshark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f04885/32.png) [@Mudshark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mudshark)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-vegetarians-and-meat-eaters/93356/119 "2001-11-16T05:02:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daowajan \* > \*\*Now that we have a nice two-page example of HOW vegetarians and non-vegetarians piss each other off, would anyone like to get back into the WHY? \*\* Because non-vegetarians know that thay are right. And vegetarians know that they are right too. :rolleyes: Who cares what you eat? I don’t really see it as a big deal to me. ---
**Author:** ![VeraGemini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e9bcb4/32.png) [@VeraGemini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VeraGemini)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-vegetarians-and-meat-eaters/93356/120 "2001-11-16T05:03:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daowajan \* > \*\*As long as we’re even mentioning the OP: > > **Gaspode** , **Satori** , **VeraGemini** et al, please take this to the Pit. Or a particularly ugly GD thread. \*\* I apologize. If Gaspode wants to continue the discussion elsewhere, I will. Otherwise, I will drop it here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-vegetarians-and-meat-eaters/93356.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-vegetarians-and-meat-eaters/93356.md?page=7)