# What is it with you Dopers? NOW it's a LIFE? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 17, 2004, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-you-dopers-now-its-a-life/280358 "2004-12-17T16:22:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![prisoner6655321](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f8ce5/32.png) [@prisoner6655321](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/prisoner6655321)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-you-dopers-now-its-a-life/280358/1 "2004-12-17T16:22:39Z")
[Inspired by this thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=291701) **Dang! [color=Red]What is it with you pro-choice dopers??? NOW ALL OF A SUDDEN IT’S A LIFE? If she wanted the abortion and he was trying to convince her to have the baby, you would be telling him that it’s NOT a life! What makes you decide whether it’s a life or not? The choice of the pregnant woman? Is that the CHOICE she’s making, whether it’s a baby or not?**[/color] Make up your mind. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-you-dopers-now-its-a-life/280358/2 "2004-12-17T16:27:33Z")
You’re not too bright, are you? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-you-dopers-now-its-a-life/280358/3 "2004-12-17T16:28:32Z")
No one thinks it’s a life _now_, retard. The thread is about what the father’s responsibilities will be _after it’s born_. Move along folks, there’s nothing to see here. ---
**Author:** ![prisoner6655321](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f8ce5/32.png) [@prisoner6655321](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/prisoner6655321)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-you-dopers-now-its-a-life/280358/4 "2004-12-17T16:57:46Z")
I don’t think that I have to give the innumberable examples in which a pro-life doper has told you pro-choice dopers that sex comes with responsibility. Now I submit to you… [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5606080#post5606080](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5606080#post5606080) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5606099#post5606099](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5606099#post5606099) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5606108#post5606108](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5606108#post5606108) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5606143#post5606143](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5606143#post5606143) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5606157#post5606157](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5606157#post5606157) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5606163#post5606163](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5606163#post5606163) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5606178#post5606178](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5606178#post5606178) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5606204#post5606204](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5606204#post5606204) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5606241#post5606241](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5606241#post5606241) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5608040#post5608040](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5608040#post5608040) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5608087#post5608087](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5608087#post5608087) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5608124#post5608124](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5608124#post5608124) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5608181#post5608181](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5608181#post5608181) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5608204#post5608204](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5608204#post5608204) I could go on. Want something to chew on… how about this? > [@Weirddave](#): > > Here’s the skinny, shitface. YOU chose to have sex, YOU accepted the inherent risks involved, and now that she’s pregnant, YOU have to support YOUR child. No pro-choice argument here? I wonder why. hmmm… ---
**Author:** ![Flander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8c91f0/32.png) [@Flander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flander)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-you-dopers-now-its-a-life/280358/5 "2004-12-17T17:04:25Z")
I’m not touching this thread with a 33 and a half foot coat hanger. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-you-dopers-now-its-a-life/280358/6 "2004-12-17T17:04:33Z")
And all those responsibilities will come due _the second the child is born_. No one is saying he has any responsibility _until_ then. Your rant is stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-you-dopers-now-its-a-life/280358/7 "2004-12-17T17:13:13Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Your rant is stupid. It’s not the rant’s fault. **prisoner6655321** is one who is stupid. Leave the rant out of it. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-you-dopers-now-its-a-life/280358/8 "2004-12-17T17:18:30Z")
> [@prisoner6655321](#): > > No pro-choice argument here? I wonder why. hmmm… I probably shouldn’t even get involved, but I’d hazard a guess that there are no “pro-choice arguments” here because she’s decided to keep the baby. Unlike most pro-lifers, pro-choice people generally don’t try to proselytize to the other side and change their minds. Ergo, since she’s having the baby no matter what, there’s no point in having a “pro-choice argument”. Instead of trying to convince him to convince her to abort the baby(as a pro-lifer would probably do in the reverse situation), she’s made her mind up and her decision is probably final. As a pro-choice male, I’d rather spend my time preparing this young moron for the eventuality that he will be required to support the baby instead of having him hold out some false hope that she will terminate the pregnancy-under duress from him or not. Got a bit of an axe to grind, eh? Well, I’d suggest you take a minute and think about your posts in this thread before submitting them since your argument is just so fucking weak. Sam ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-you-dopers-now-its-a-life/280358/9 "2004-12-17T17:23:59Z")
There’s also the fact that carrying the fetus to term is a choice, as is keeping the baby. Looks like as far as the outcome of the pregnancy is concerned, the choices have all been made. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-you-dopers-now-its-a-life/280358/10 "2004-12-17T17:39:47Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > There’s also the fact that carrying the fetus to term is a choice, as is keeping the baby. > > Looks like as far as the outcome of the pregnancy is concerned, the choices have all been made. And there’s your pro-choice argment. Remember kiddies: Pro-choice =/= all abortion all the time ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-you-dopers-now-its-a-life/280358/11 "2004-12-17T17:45:31Z")
Note that the name for the movement is “pro-choice”, not “pro-abortion”, despite what the other side would like to have people believe. If you didn’t realize it before, it must be odd to suddenly be confronted with evidence that pro-choice people are also as a general rule pro-responsibility. The choice to abort or not abort is not considered a frivolous one, despite what the other side would like to have people believe. Pro-choice means respecting a woman’s right to keep _as well as_ to abort a pregnancy; not pushing people into having abortions, despite what the other side would like to have people believe. [sup]TM[/sup] The key is that the choice to keep or end a pregnancy should be the prerogative of the woman and her doctor and perhaps whatever God she believes in; not the government, not somebody else’s church, and not a handful of busybodies on a message board. The woman in question has made her choice. The bulk of advice to the young man is to deal with his responsibility, not to try to convince her to have an abortion she doesn’t want. There is no contradiction here. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-you-dopers-now-its-a-life/280358/12 "2004-12-17T17:47:08Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > And all those responsibilities will come due _the second the child is born_. > > No one is saying he has any responsibility _until_ then. The instant he’s born, he’s a child. Before that instant, he’s a meaningless piece of tissue? ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-you-dopers-now-its-a-life/280358/13 "2004-12-17T17:50:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The instant he’s born, he’s a child. Before that instant, he’s a meaningless piece of tissue? Yes. That’s what all pro-choice people think. You can have an abortion while you’re 8cm dilated and it’s just fine. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-you-dopers-now-its-a-life/280358/14 "2004-12-17T17:52:49Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > Yes. That’s what all pro-choice people think. You can have an abortion while you’re 8cm dilated and it’s just fine. I didn’t impute that view to all pro-choice people… just to **Diogenes** , based on: > [@](#): > > And all those responsibilities will come due the second the child is born. But it’s distressing to learn that all pro-choice people share that view. I had no idea… ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-you-dopers-now-its-a-life/280358/15 "2004-12-17T17:53:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The instant he’s born, he’s a child. Before that instant, he’s a meaningless piece of tissue? :rolleyes: That isn’t what **DtC** said. He said the father isn’t financially responsible til the child is born. What part of that statement, in your mind, means “it’s not a real person til it’s born” ? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-you-dopers-now-its-a-life/280358/16 "2004-12-17T18:01:04Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > Pro-choice means respecting a woman’s right to keep _as well as_ to abort a pregnancy; not pushing people into having abortions, despite what the other side would like to have people believe. You mean it’s not the job of us pro-choicers to go around randomly killing babies? Uh oh. ☹ I find it rather humorous that the OP seems upset that pro-choicers aren’t trying to force this woman into an abortion. It’s like we refuse to set up his strawman for him or something. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-you-dopers-now-its-a-life/280358/17 "2004-12-17T18:01:42Z")
Rick, follow this logic: if it’s a life, and produced by human reproduction, it’s a human being, which means that it’s entitled to the full spectrum of rights we grant human beings in this country – which means you should be out there getting voting rights for fetuses, following the logic. Here’s my take on it: it’s two gametes fusing, producing an embryo, which becomes a fetus, which becomes a baby, a toddler, a child, an adolescent, and an adult, in order, if nothing should stop it first. Just as the range of rights and responsibilities grows from birth to majority, and ought to, there’s a period prior to birth in which it is a potential separate person but not yet actually one – it cannot live without the support of the womb in which it’s carried. That means the person to whom the womb is attached has rights and responsibilities as well. I am personally, in general, opposed to the termination of a pregnancy that will lead to a viable human being. But I am not prepared to regard that personal view as justification to mandate that someone else – the pregnant girl or woman – must therefore carry the child to term. There’s a balancing-of-rights routine that must be carried out there – and the fertilization of an unlodged gamete is not the point at which that person-in-potentia has an absolute right to life, IMO. I respect your right to view it differently – but I’m stating my own view. One evolves toward being an adult human being in stages – I merely extend that series back before birth, and regard the assumption of rights and responsibilities as also extending backwards through pregnancy. ---
**Author:** ![MysteryFellow63427](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e4f/32.png) [@MysteryFellow63427](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MysteryFellow63427)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-you-dopers-now-its-a-life/280358/18 "2004-12-17T18:20:04Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Your rant is stupid. I agree. I also wonder why the OP thought the “underwater christmas” color theme would help his argument. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-you-dopers-now-its-a-life/280358/19 "2004-12-17T18:28:13Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > :rolleyes: That isn’t what **DtC** said. He said the father isn’t financially responsible til the child is born. What part of that statement, in your mind, means “it’s not a real person til it’s born” ? Just as a point of information, while **DtC** doesn’t say exactly that in the post quoted, he has done so in the [past](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5070079&postcount=38), so it’s reasonable to assume that that’s still his position. Interestingly, in the thread I linked to, **DtC** floats the idea of the mother being able to pursue a “virtual” termination in late term, whereby the baby is brought to term (or induced prematurely, I guess) and lives, but with no further obligations on the part of the mother. Which is more or less the arrangement **hauss** was after for himself in the threads that started this whole shebang. Regardless; the OP is still one of the daftest bits of alleged reasoning I’ve seen recently. Love the colours, though. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-you-dopers-now-its-a-life/280358/20 "2004-12-17T18:49:33Z")
> [@Dead Badger](#): > > Just as a point of information, while **DtC** doesn’t say exactly that in the post quoted, he has done so in the [past](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5070079&postcount=38), so it’s reasonable to assume that that’s still his position. Here’s the linked post, just to save everybody some clicking time. In response to someone asking me when a fetus becomes a person, I said the following: > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > When it’s born, or to be more specific, when it is no longer part of another person’s body. > JJ, The Supreme Court says a fetus isn’t a person and so do I and so does God (She told me). So that’s that. You may fantasize that a blood clot is a person if you wish. I won’t stop you, nor will I force you to abort any pregnancies, just don’t get the idea that the rest of the world must conform to your own idiosyncratic definition of personhood. If you decide that a cow is a person that doesn’t mean the government has to recignize it as such or that eating beef is cannibalism. Notice that I specifed that the moment was not necessarily birth but when the fetus was no longer part of another person’s body. Legally, it’s the only rational position possible. For like the 10 millionth time in 10 million threads, there is no real moment when a fetus becomes a person. Any line drawn must _necessarily_ be arbitrary. I think that my line is the one that does the least damage. > [@](#): > > Interestingly, in the thread I linked to, **DtC** floats the idea of the mother being able to pursue a “virtual” termination in late term, whereby the baby is brought to term (or induced prematurely, I guess) and lives, but with no further obligations on the part of the mother. Which is more or less the arrangement **hauss** was after for himself in the threads that started this whole shebang. I disagree strongly that it’s the same thing. For one thing, an incident of a woman suddenly deciding in the 8th or 9th month that she wants to voluntarily terminate a pregnancy for no medical reason is unlikely as to border on the purely hypothetical. For another thing, the 4 women per century who would do such a thing would be taking _physical responsibility_ for carrying the fetus as long as they did. They are not skipping out on anything. It would basically amount to putting it up for adoption. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-it-with-you-dopers-now-its-a-life/280358.md?page=2)