# What is masculinity and why is it important? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 19, 2019, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179 "2019-05-19T05:21:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2019, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/21 "2019-05-19T22:32:42Z")
In the Jewish/Yiddish tradition the word is “mensch”; the meaning as defined by Leo Rosten in _The Joys of Yiddish_: > [@](#): > > 1. A human being > 2. An upright, honorable decent person > 3. Someone of consequence, someone to admire and emulate; someone of noble character Practical usage being focused on the latter two. And often used more to describe a man with those qualities than a woman but that my guess always was because as a stereotype a mensch of a man was more the exception to be noted. More words of insult are used on males too … If you want the machismo word in the tradition you’d have to go with the Hebrew [“gever”](https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-word-of-the-day-gever-1.5243471). But in general that does not have the same positive attributes as being a mensch does and is less known in America. I think English needs a similar word that just means that ideal of being a person to admire and to emulate, of noble character, doing the right thing because it is the right thing, and that such is what we should teach our children to grow to be, not “real men” or “real women” but whatever we decide is the English for “mensch.” ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/22 "2019-05-20T00:07:44Z")
It’s not important. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/23 "2019-05-20T00:55:11Z")
Humility is not a standard trait associate with masculinity. Not in our society. In fact, it’s the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/24 "2019-05-20T01:09:02Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Once men claim “feminine” traits the same way women have claimed “masculine” ones, they will cease to be seen as gendered. This is almost certainly true, but how likely is it to happen? > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Hard, but not impossible. Language changes all the time. Language change seems to follow cultural change rather than lead it; trying to force language change in advance of cultural change seems to result in ridicule, such as in recent years the contempt for “PC” speech. Of course, cultural leaders can change the way they speak and try to lead by example, but I am not sanguine. > [@DSeid](#): > > I think English needs a similar word that just means that ideal of being a person to admire and to emulate, of noble character, doing the right thing because it is the right thing, and that such is what we should teach our children to grow to be, not “real men” or “real women” but whatever we decide is the English for “mensch.” That would be excellent. I’ve occasionally heard non-Jewish people using this word in approximately the correct way. Doesn’t it come from German? Do they use it in the same way it is used in Yiddish? ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/25 "2019-05-20T01:10:03Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > It’s not important. It seems to be to a lot of people. Are you speaking for yourself, or is this a broader observation? If the latter, why do you think so? ---
**Author:** ![Covfefe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Covfefe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covfefe)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/26 "2019-05-20T04:58:31Z")
I don’t see why there is a need to compel (especially young) individuals to feel that gender roles should to an extent be something to conform to. Insomuch as they may matter in the aggregate, this should take care of itself with live and let live attitude, vigilant and skeptical. As I hear it from those who are fearful of the erosion of traditional gender roles destabilizing society, they are up against those who think pointing out differences in sexes is a bad thing and those who aggressively want to erase all gender differences. Often ISTM something is getting lost in translation, like they aren’t distinguishing between individuals desiring nonconformity and their way of life being under attack. If we who value individuality want to de-escalate this conflict, we might have to also resist lending validation to some of the fringe voices who claim there are no explicable differences between choices of sexes whatsoever, just constructs. ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/27 "2019-05-20T05:01:03Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Humility is not a standard trait associate with masculinity. Not in our society. In fact, it’s the opposite. This is part of where it gets tricky. To a certain part of the population it is not, I agree. To another set, it is. If you look at what **Thorny Locust** said in response to the “adolescent concept” part of my post, there is an indicator that humility may in fact be a manly trait to some women. The other part of what makes this a difficult question to answer is that specific traits move in and out of favor based on a lot of different things such as age, gender, life experience, upbringing etc even if the underlying purpose (to attract and keep a mate) remains the same. Humility may not be a signal of manliness to you and your part of society, but it is for me and my part of society. If you need to brag you’re not a real man, you’re a boy still trying to prove yourself. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/28 "2019-05-20T05:31:59Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > It seems to be to a lot of people. Are you speaking for yourself, or is this a broader observation? If the latter, why do you think so? Certainly speaking for myself. Though I find it a pretty useful topic in filtering out those that insist that it IS important. I’m open to the idea of it maybe being important, but everyone that has tried to explain why has just seemed focused on the wrong things in life. Just be a good, kind, empathetic, responsible person. No need to kill yourself trying to achieve special goals because you have/dont have a penis. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/29 "2019-05-20T14:38:23Z")
Part of the issue with “humility” may be that I think not everyone means the same thing by the word. To some people it means something like 'acknowledging that you’re not the center of the universe" and/or “recognizing that you’re not the only one whose interests matter” and/or “acknowledging that you don’t know everything”; maybe the opposite of “arrogance”? To others I think it means something like “putting yourself down” or “thinking you’re less worthy than other people” or “knowing your place” in the nasty sense of that term: more like the opposite of “confidence” or even of “self-respect”. Some cultures consider “humility” in the first sense to be a valuable trait in people of any gender. Others seem to value arrogance in men and humility – perhaps in both senses – in women; or sometimes to value arrogance in an elite – however defined – and humility in everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/30 "2019-05-20T15:46:07Z")
Masculinity and exhibiting those types of character traits are helpful in attracting people that value those traits. Since in many ways we as people do many things to attract potential mates and partners, being masculine is one way that we do that. If you find yourself not being able to attract potential mates and partners, it may be because you are not exhibiting these certain types of masculine traits. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/31 "2019-05-20T16:00:31Z")
No doubt Omar Little. Thing though that many of those same traits, grit, toughness, courage, so on, are also damn attractive in a woman. The issue is not to me whether or not some of these traits are attractive to potential mates and partners, but the harms of thinking of them as gendered including for some of the traits the harms of internalizing the image and trying to live up to what is actually a caricature of being a man. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/32 "2019-05-20T16:13:09Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The issue is not to me whether or not some of these traits are attractive to potential mates and partners, but the harms of **thinking of them as gendered** including for some of the traits the harms of internalizing the image and trying to live up to what is actually a caricature of being a man. Isn’t that the beauty of individuality? What one person finds attractive may be different to another. So seek and you shall find. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/33 "2019-05-20T16:39:39Z")
We are not individuals in isolation though. We are impacted by societal messaging and in aggregate impact it. My impression is that men think women are more attracted to caricature masculinity than they are and that women think men are not as attracted to women with grit toughness and courage as we are. They too often also internalize the female caricature or respond specifically against it, which is just as much allowing themselves to be controlled by it. I have my real woman already and she’s stuck with me. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/34 "2019-05-20T17:16:24Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > My impression is that men think women are more attracted to caricature masculinity than they are and that women think men are not as attracted to women with grit toughness and courage as we are. Well if we are talking about averages or societal norms, what makes you think that your average woman in the world is not attracted to masculinity as typically expressed? I tend to believe that most women are attracted to those types of character traits. If not but for the reason that women learn that is what is attractive by society. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/35 "2019-05-20T17:49:44Z")
Note that the claim is as attracted as men think to the caricature, not unattracted. And the converse. I don’t know many real life men attracted to weak women. No time to find the study right now but was a great one that showed how men thought women found the masculine more muscles physique as more attractive than women actually do and conversely that women believe men like thinner more than they do. We internalize the caricatures as ideals rather than as the cartoons they are. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2019, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/36 "2019-05-20T19:57:08Z")
Individual women might say they prefer humility in a mate, but that doesn’t make it a masculine trait. In general, our society doesn’t reward humility. In fact, it often punishes it. Boasters are quite successful. It’s very common advice that to succeed in the American workplace, you have to tout your accomplishments. Humble people rarely get far in our culture. Or if they do, it’s despite their humility. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/37 "2019-05-21T23:49:20Z")
I hope this isn’t too hijacky, but reading this got me to thinking that in my mind, there’s “feminine” (which I do feel) and “girly” which I have never felt / aspired to. Are there comparable terms for the male . . . um, psyche(?)I know this isn’t what **AH** was addressing but it seems kind of related. Like maybe some men feel perfectly “masculine” but not . . .whatever the counterpart to “girly” is. For instance, they’re not attracted sexually to other men, don’t like the “stereotypical male activities” and have never striven to _portray_ themselves as “manly” but have a sense of being “masculine” Sorry if I’m being muddled or if this is too far afield. Interesting OP. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2019, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/38 "2019-05-24T20:10:47Z")
Like Femininity, Masculinity is a divisive stereotype comprised of arbitrary personal qualities. It is important to the moneyed political and merchant classes because it limits through definition and keeps the sexes at odds with one another. It’s easier to keep two half armies at each other’s throats than to face a single full strength army. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2019, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/39 "2019-05-25T10:34:03Z")
Some things I’ve read or heard just in the last few days: “A black woman looks in the mirror, and sees a black woman. A white woman looks in the mirror and sees a woman. A white man looks in the mirror and sees a person.” “Gender isn’t an internal property. It’s a performance. Without society in which to perform gender, it would have no meaning.” There is some absolutely amazing discussion of some of this in “Bad Feminist” by Roxane Gay, which I’m in the middle of. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2019, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/40 "2019-05-25T12:12:40Z")
I know many people for whom humility is taught as a part of being manly. I’ve been taught it basically since I’ve been alive. I don’t agree at all that no one pushes that sort of thing. It was all over my children’s entertainment on TV. I was specifically taught that strength means being able to admit when you need help. It means you don’t freak out if someone thinks you aren’t strong–which is not the case for toxic masculinity, where you always need to get into dick measuring contests with everyone. As for the OP: I think there will actually eventually be only one ideal–well, one range of ideals–that works in all genders. The gendered ideals are more about meeting people where they are and expressing that ideal in ways they will find appealing. There is an existing desire of men to be seen as strong, so we can therefore express ideal traits as showing strength. “Compassion shows strength of character, that you can handle yourself, and have strength leftover to help others.” Now are there inherent differences from the start, or are they all conditioned? Both are possible. I tend to personally think that there is some of the biological that provided the seed for the cultural divide, but that the differences were always small, and got bigger over time. But maybe I’m wrong, and it was all cultural. It doesn’t really matter in this case. As for women rejecting what it means to be “feminine,” I think a lot of that comes from the fact that men were the ones defining that term, and women refusing to be constrained. In men, the toxic version of masculinity is a competition, so those who feel they have a chance at “winning” don’t want it changed. But the rest of us feel like the women do, that it is someone else telling me what it means to be masculine. I’ll cry, because I’m manly enough to not worry about how people might think I’m being unmanly. My masculinity is internal, not external. It’s not for show. To show my nerd cred: it’s like how Worf (internal honor) is different than other Klingons (who care more about showing honor). And, yes, I do think that message was intentional on Star Trek’s part. I think the Klingon honor code is a stand in for masculinity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179.md?page=3)