# What is masculinity and why is it important? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 19, 2019, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179 "2019-05-19T05:21:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2019, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/61 "2019-05-27T16:32:07Z")
From the point of view of media writing about her it matters naught if Taylor had children or if her valued family role was that of daughter and sister alone. Specifics are trumped by expectations in any case. Your belief of the questionable value of chasing one’s dreams is clear. I wonder how divergently male and female military or first responder deaths in the line of service are reacted to? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2019, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/62 "2019-05-27T16:41:07Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > From the point of view of media writing about her it matters naught if Taylor had children or if her valued family role was that of daughter and sister alone. Specifics are trumped by expectations in any case. I don’t know what you mean. > [@](#): > > I wonder how divergently male and female military or first responder deaths in the line of service are reacted to? What’s your hypothesis? You know mine. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2019, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/63 "2019-05-27T17:06:34Z")
Not sure what you don’t understand. Media reports are based on the biases inherent in her being a woman. Who she was as a real person can often get trumped by that. Moreover a woman is often placed in the expectation of being a major family value person even as daughter and sister, more than a man is even as father and husband. My WAG is that in service we are at point that both are reported with equal levels of heroism and tragic loss for military and first responder loss but that the impact on their families will be highlighted more for the women. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2019, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/64 "2019-05-27T17:56:42Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Not sure what you don’t understand. Media reports are based on the biases inherent in her being a woman. Who she was as a real person can often get trumped by that. Moreover a woman is often placed in the expectation of being a major family value person even as daughter and sister, more than a man is even as father and husband. I didn’t understand how you what wrote connected with what I said; the above is clearer. Yes, women tend to get the “beloved member of the family” edit more than men. But in no culture am I aware of are daughters and sisters valued more than fathers and sons. > [@](#): > > My WAG is that in service we are at point that both are reported with equal levels of heroism and tragic loss for military and first responder loss but that the impact on their families will be highlighted more for the women. This [book](https://books.google.com/books?id=BgUqDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA553&lpg=PA553&dq=differences+in+gender+media+tragedy+%E2%80%9Cline+of+duty%E2%80%9D&source=bl&ots=UnK0bvigOk&sig=ACfU3U0qnUTaJ6ITdCLTylQLBcmQAyy2lg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi9gKaImLziAhXuYt8KHac_Czw4ChDoATAFegQICBAB#v=onepage&q=differences%20in%20gender%20media%20tragedy%20%E2%80%9Cline%20of%20duty%E2%80%9D&f=false) suggests there are gender differences in how military deaths are portrayed. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2019, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/65 "2019-05-27T18:12:55Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > This [book](https://books.google.com/books?id=BgUqDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA553&lpg=PA553&dq=differences+in+gender+media+tragedy+%E2%80%9Cline+of+duty%E2%80%9D&source=bl&ots=UnK0bvigOk&sig=ACfU3U0qnUTaJ6ITdCLTylQLBcmQAyy2lg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi9gKaImLziAhXuYt8KHac_Czw4ChDoATAFegQICBAB#v=onepage&q=differences%20in%20gender%20media%20tragedy%20%E2%80%9Cline%20of%20duty%E2%80%9D&f=false) suggests there are gender differences in how military deaths are portrayed. In the book _Bogeys and Bandits_, it is narrated how, in the 1990s, some male fighter pilots in the Navy were angered because the death of a female fighter pilot got a lavish funeral and far more official organizational ceremony than the death of male pilots. Not sure if that is still the case. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2019, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/66 "2019-05-27T19:05:36Z")
If someone has a life’s passion or calling or life’s work, then I don’t see why they should be required by any system of morality or ethics or values, to give it up just because they have smilies, regardless of their sex or other classification. That’s of course balanced against the social utility of that life’s passion. Climbing MojntbWvwrwat has clearly become something detrimental to the the local environment. Bug that has nothing to do with people’s children. But children grow up in all kinds of circumstances. I don’t think they are owed a parent who never takes risks to accomplish things just so they can remain alive. The existence of a person with a parent who died in ēs childhood—whether by accidental circumstance or to pursue a goal—might be in itself an experience that creates value in society. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/67 "2019-05-28T01:17:39Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > If someone has a life’s passion or calling or life’s work, then I don’t see why they should be required by any system of morality or ethics or values, to give it up just because they have smilies, regardless of their sex or other classification. Expecting someone to give up a dream is one thing. Lauding someone for not giving up a dream—even when pursuing that dream leads to their untimely demise and provides no extrinsic benefit to anyone else—is another. But this looks like a hijack so no more from me on this. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2019, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/68 "2019-05-28T03:13:54Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > You have to die of something eventually. Might as well be on Everest. > > I believe the correct answer is “man up”.🆒 > > I think that’s a bit of a tautology (I think). If you are saying leadership and decision-making are positive traits then you are creating a social barrier against people who do not display those traits (at least with respect to leadership roles). Whether they are “masculine” is irrelevant, unless you are assuming that the display of other traditionally “masculine” traits is an indication of leadership and decision-making. It’s not a tautology. If you assign leadership and decision making traits to masculinity, you are setting up barriers to certain roles for people who aren’t masculine, aren’t considered sufficiently masculine or aren’t interested in masculinity even if they are capable of them. “It doesn’t matter if you are a woman” only in a society that doesn’t consider those traits to be not feminine or even anti feminine traits, and that’s not the society we live in. As soon as you define any positive trait as masculine, you create a problem for everyone who can’t be or doesn’t want to be perceived as masculine. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/69 "2019-06-01T17:19:13Z")
> [@Anny\_Middon](#): > > Many years ago, a male partner at the consulting firm I worked for told one of the female associates she wasn’t “womanly.” She was extremely hurt and insulted by this remark, as were all the other females who heard about it. > > Except for me. I knew the firm well and the partner somewhat well, and AFAICT he was saying she didn’t act enough like a little girl. > > To this day I still don’t know if he meant something else by it, and if so what that was. I still don’t know why so many thought it was such an insulting thing to say. Why would you take to heart anything said by an asshole partner? (And, yeah, they were pretty much all assholes.) That’s an interesting anecdote. Also interesting is that notion that you apparently don’t (didn’t) find that a remark that infantilizes women\* to be insulting. \*(which is how I would characterize an implication that to be “womanly” one must “act [sufficiently] like a little girl”) ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/70 "2019-06-01T18:30:52Z")
[The Art of Talking Past Each Other](https://ahunter3.livejournal.com/56601.html) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179/71 "2019-06-01T19:59:28Z")
> [@Anny\_Middon](#): > > Many years ago, a male partner at the consulting firm I worked for told one of the female associates she wasn’t “womanly.” She was extremely hurt and insulted by this remark, as were all the other females who heard about it. > > Except for me. I knew the firm well and the partner somewhat well, and AFAICT he was saying she didn’t act enough like a little girl. > > To this day I still don’t know if he meant something else by it, and if so what that was. I still don’t know why so many thought it was such an insulting thing to say. Why would you take to heart anything said by an asshole partner? (And, yeah, they were pretty much all assholes.) Because they’re assholes that make the decisions that affect your life, for one? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-masculinity-and-why-is-it-important/834179.md?page=3)