# What is misogyny? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-misogyny/655771 "2013-04-15T16:18:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-misogyny/655771/101 "2013-04-18T17:18:44Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Unlike many other -isms, there really are differences between men and women. Generic sexism would be nothing but the recognition of such, but by extending that to consider one group or the other superior outside of narrow specific criteria causes the problem. The problem is that your first sentence opens the door. You’re trying to rectify that by qualifying “outside of narrow specific criteria” but that has no logical basis. > [@](#): > > Women not wanting to be tech nerds is not a great concern, but regulations or attitudes which prevent women from becoming tech nerds would be a great problem. Sure. But there’s a middle scenario. Suppose there are no “regulations or attitudes” but the nature of the business tends to be done - for historical or practical reasons - in a way that does not appeal to many women. Suppose, for example, that it does not lend itself to flexible hours. Is that a “problem” that needs to be overcome? Or is that just the way things are? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-misogyny/655771/102 "2013-04-18T17:20:18Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > That is certainly not what I’ve been talking about. I do not think it is what “we” in this thread have been talking about. What is under discussion is the significance of an utterance of “no” as this concerns the prospective actions of the male in the scenario. The intended communication is irrelevant to what the male ought to do in the scenario. What is relevant is what is said. If she says “no,” it does not matter what she really wants, or what he thinks she really wants. What matters is what she said. She said “no,” and that is a withdrawal of consent. It does not matter what was intended or desired, what matters is what was said. > > A possible rejoinder: “So then if she says ‘yes’ but her body language indicates in every way that she doesn’t really want to have sex, should I have sex with her anyway?” The reply to this would be that the general principle is one of caution. If a “no” is accompanied by positive body language, the principle of caution recommends following what is said, and not what is unclearly indicated by nonverbal means. Meanwwhile, if a “yes” is accompanied by negative body language, the principle of caution recommends doubting the accuracy of what is said, at least until clarity is reached. The reason for following the principle of caution is simply the fact that violation of withdrawn consent to sex is a far, far worse thing than failure to follow up on an invitation to have sex. Caution is fine. But the issue is rarely she says ‘yes’ and indicates otherwise. The problem is when she says ‘no,yes,no,yes’ in several different ways at once. Caution is a good idea, but we’re talking about something that started out as consensual, not the guy jumping out of the bushes. When a couple are making out and it gets hot heavy and he’s got both hands and other parts of his body in contact different parts of hers, and she the same, and she says ‘no’ and doesn’t disengage do you really expect the guy to pull away? Do you think if they continue and it leads to coitus he is then raping her because of her ‘no’ some non-specific act earlier on? When you reduce advice to sound bites you get this kind of confusion. Saying ‘no’ should be specific, loud, and require physical disengagement to be taken seriously. I’m not saying this because I think women don’t know this, and I’m sure they’ll say they’ve done that and it didn’t help, and I’m not addressing that at all. I’m talking about how you discuss this subject and educate people. The problems aren’t a result of the clear cut cases. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-misogyny/655771/103 "2013-04-18T17:28:12Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Caution is fine. But the issue is rarely she says ‘yes’ and indicates otherwise. The problem is when she says ‘no,yes,no,yes’ in several different ways at once. Caution is a good idea, but we’re talking about something that started out as consensual, not the guy jumping out of the bushes. When a couple are making out and it gets hot heavy and he’s got both hands and other parts of his body in contact different parts of hers, and she the same, and she says ‘no’ and doesn’t disengage do you really expect the guy to pull away? Do you think if they continue and it leads to coitus he is then raping her because of her ‘no’ some non-specific act earlier on? When you reduce advice to sound bites you get this kind of confusion. Saying ‘no’ should be specific, loud, and require physical disengagement to be taken seriously. > > I’m not saying this because I think women don’t know this, and I’m sure they’ll say they’ve done that and it didn’t help, and I’m not addressing that at all. I’m talking about how you discuss this subject and educate people. The problems aren’t a result of the clear cut cases. If she said “no” and he’s not sure what she’s saying “no” to then he should ask her what she’s saying “no” to. How does that contradict or sit in tension with anything I’ve said? I would disagree that “no” requires physcial disengagement or loudness to be worth taking seriously. In every case _what is said_ is of paramount importance in determining what is communicated. All other signals are much, much more unclear than what words are actually being uttered. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-misogyny/655771/104 "2013-04-18T18:27:57Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > If she said “no” and he’s not sure what she’s saying “no” to then he should ask her what she’s saying “no” to. How does that contradict or sit in tension with anything I’ve said? > > I would disagree that “no” requires physcial disengagement or loudness to be worth taking seriously. In every case _what is said_ is of paramount importance in determining what is communicated. All other signals are much, much more unclear than what words are actually being uttered. When she says ‘no’ while she’s stroking your johnson it’s not likely to be heard correctly. Trite sayings aren’t going to resolve that problem. If ‘no’ doesn’t have to meet a standard like Clear and Convincing then it has no meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-misogyny/655771/105 "2013-04-18T19:02:29Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > When she says ‘no’ while she’s stroking your johnson it’s not likely to be heard correctly. Trite sayings aren’t going to resolve that problem. If ‘no’ doesn’t have to meet a standard like Clear and Convincing then it has no meaning. I am honestly confused about what you’re trying to say here. If she says no while stroking his penis, he needs to ask her what she means by “no” doesn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-misogyny/655771/106 "2013-04-18T19:34:45Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I am honestly confused about what you’re trying to say here. If she says no while stroking his penis, he needs to ask her what she means by “no” doesn’t he? Or ask her to stop with the confusing behavor. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-misogyny/655771/107 "2013-04-18T20:07:16Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Or ask her to stop with the confusing behavor. Yes, or that. I don’t know how this scenario is supposed to create a problem for what I’ve been saying in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![pjnlsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e8c25b/32.png) [@pjnlsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjnlsn)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-misogyny/655771/108 "2013-04-18T21:55:11Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > A friend pointed out today that “No means no” doesn’t quite cut it. He suggested “Yes means yes, _everything else_ means no” as a replacement. A little discussion, and we decided that “Only an enthusiastic Yes! means Yes. Everything else means No.” worked for us, as men. Not that either of us are really in a place where this is an issue, both being married to women who know their own minds and boundaries and aren’t afraid to let them be known. But it’s what we’d teach our sons if we had any. Nah, this is what it really means: [http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/31026381.jpg](http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/31026381.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-misogyny/655771/109 "2013-04-18T21:58:50Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I am honestly confused about what you’re trying to say here. If she says no while stroking his penis, he needs to ask her what she means by “no” doesn’t he? Let me be clearer. ‘No yes yes yes’ does not mean ‘no’. I don’t ‘know’ does not mean no. Whispering ‘no’ does not mean ‘no’. Writing ‘no’ on a note and giving it to Suzy to give to Scotty in math class does not mean ‘no’. ‘No’ means ‘no’ when it’s clear and obvious what you are saying ‘no’ to, and you don’t follow it with ‘yes’. I don’t know how often cases like that happen, but that’s not the point. The point is that when your argument consists of a trite saying it gets ignored by anyone who can think of the obvious exceptions. And that’s how the ignorance propogates. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-misogyny/655771/110 "2013-04-18T22:15:29Z")
> [@pjnlsn](#): > > Misogyny is truth as women exist to serve men. > [@pjnlsn](#): > > Nah, this is what it really means: > > [http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/31026381.jpg](http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/31026381.jpg) While I think you might believe you are injecting humor into this thread, you have now persuaded me that you are trolling. This is an official Warning to knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-misogyny/655771/111 "2013-04-18T22:19:51Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Let me be clearer. Okay. > [@](#): > > ‘No yes yes yes’ does not mean ‘no’. I don’t ‘know’ does not mean no. Whispering ‘no’ does not mean ‘no’. Writing ‘no’ on a note and giving it to Suzy to give to Scotty in math class does not mean ‘no’. ‘No’ means ‘no’ when it’s clear and obvious what you are saying ‘no’ to, and you don’t follow it with ‘yes’. Wait, I thought you were going for clarity? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-misogyny/655771/112 "2013-04-18T22:36:56Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Let me be clearer. ‘No yes yes yes’ does not mean ‘no’. I don’t ‘know’ does not mean no. Whispering ‘no’ does not mean ‘no’. Writing ‘no’ on a note and giving it to Suzy to give to Scotty in math class does not mean ‘no’. ‘No’ means ‘no’ when it’s clear and obvious what you are saying ‘no’ to, and you don’t follow it with ‘yes’. > > I don’t know how often cases like that happen, but that’s not the point. The point is that when your argument consists of a trite saying it gets ignored by anyone who can think of the obvious exceptions. And that’s how the ignorance propogates. This is a really important point to this conversation. It’s one side of the rape culture argument distilled to its essence, and, even though I know you said it was tangential to the initial question you asked about defining misogyny, but from… well, I don’t know if there’s an “us,” but from my perspective, it’s the same point. You’re making an assumption about what the tipping point is between the green light and everything other than the green light. What you’re saying is, if me and a chick are on the couch after a date, it’s fine that the assumption is that we’re having sex until somebody very coitus-interruptus-ly says otherwise. If we’re making out, there needs to be clear and convincing evidence that it’s _not_ OK for me to get up in it; if that’s not the rule, then the whole idea of coming down hard on non-consensual sex can’t be taken seriously. Right? That’s how I’m reading you. The reason there’s a cliche about the feminist “no means no” is that, all due respect, it’s exactly what you need to hear to understand what the objection is here. The problem is that the assumption you’re making is extremely deferential to what the guy wants (and by guy I mean the person who isn’t saying no, which isn’t the way it has to be, and so on, but for simplicity’s sake), to the point of being completely reckless to the other person’s desires. It makes perfect sense, from the guy’s perspective, that he’s going to plug away until something pierces the boner-generated veil of disregard he’s operating behind. It makes perfect sense that she would have to say “wait wait, I’m saying no, don’t put your dick in me. Do not do it.” But that’s not the only perspective. Think about it from the other one. Why exactly should he be allowed to make that assumption? As long as we’re out here in the classroom, and not the laboratory, can we articulate a single rational purpose for having everyone just understand that a person who doesn’t want sex has a _burden of proof_ before we should take that person’s wishes seriously? Whispering or not, she’s saying the word no. Who the fuck is the guy to determine that it isn’t a powerful enough no? ---
**Author:** ![pjnlsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e8c25b/32.png) [@pjnlsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjnlsn)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-misogyny/655771/113 "2013-04-18T23:01:08Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > While I think you might believe you are injecting humor into this thread, you have now persuaded me that you are trolling. > > This is an official Warning to knock it off. > > [/Moderating] Yeah, but is there a specific rule I’m breaking, or is it just you acting in accordance with how you feel about something? Besides, if you really think i’m a troll, you must only have read my posts in this thread. And they’re not really trolling, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-misogyny/655771/114 "2013-04-18T23:05:51Z")
> [@pjnlsn](#): > > Nah, this is what it really means: > > [http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/31026381.jpg](http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/31026381.jpg) Really, you’re going to post this link TWICE? **eta:** Sorry, just saw the mod discussion. ---
**Author:** ![pjnlsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e8c25b/32.png) [@pjnlsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjnlsn)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-misogyny/655771/115 "2013-04-18T23:14:33Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > Really, you’re going to post this link TWICE? > > **eta:** Sorry, just saw the mod discussion. Oh, it’s a different link. this one is: “No means yes. Yes means anal.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-misogyny/655771/116 "2013-04-18T23:15:37Z")
> [@pjnlsn](#): > > Yeah, but is there a specific rule I’m breaking, or is it just you acting in accordance with how you feel about something? > > Besides, if you really think i’m a troll, you must only have read my posts in this thread. > > And they’re not really trolling, anyway. Well, the specific rule that you violated was threadshitting. I did not accuse you of “being a troll”; I accused you of trolling in the context of this thread. If you refrain from further activity that looks just like trolling, you will not acquire the epithet “troll.” If you continue to submit posts that are facetious, off topic, and obnoxious, you will earn the epithet “troll.” Any further discussion of Moderating regarding this thread should be taken up in the [ATMB](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=2) forum rather than further hijacking this thread. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-misogyny/655771/117 "2013-04-18T23:19:33Z")
I don’t know why I bothered. I’ve changed my mind. Tell your daughter to whisper ‘no’, and then stick her hand down a guy’s pants. He’ll understand she means no. And keep up your ‘no means no’ campaign, it’s been working great so far. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-misogyny/655771/118 "2013-04-18T23:20:32Z")
I also don’t know why you bothered. I intend that my daughter’s first line of defense, incidentally, is going to be outliving the dinosaurs currently walking the earth. ---
**Author:** ![pjnlsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e8c25b/32.png) [@pjnlsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjnlsn)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-misogyny/655771/119 "2013-04-18T23:38:07Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Well, the specific rule that you violated was threadshitting. > > I did not accuse you of “being a troll”; I accused you of trolling in the context of this thread. > If you refrain from further activity that looks just like trolling, you will not acquire the epithet “troll.” If you continue to submit posts that are facetious, off topic, and obnoxious, you will earn the epithet “troll.” > > Any further discussion of Moderating regarding this thread should be taken up in the [ATMB](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=2) forum rather than further hijacking this thread. > > [/Moderating] And yet, I wouldn’t be a troll. I mean you should look at my other posts. And as far as trolling in this thread alone, even then the reason I posted like I did is cuz this debate is largely pointless. It’s one of those issues which one’s opinion on or one’s attitude towards is on average determined entirely by emotion and other things not strictly conscious like self-image and tendency towards empathy. Even, say, the most controversial political issues always have at least a slight factual dependence, even if some public figures ignore this. And so I wouldn’t call it trolling. P.S. Facetiousness and text being obnoxious to you is hardly a good reason to exercize moderator powers. And as far as being off-topic, not really. It’s not as though I posted an article on “Tomato cultivation in temperate climes” or something. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-misogyny/655771/120 "2013-04-18T23:48:53Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Let me be clearer. ‘No yes yes yes’ does not mean ‘no’. I don’t ‘know’ does not mean no. Whispering ‘no’ does not mean ‘no’. Writing ‘no’ on a note and giving it to Suzy to give to Scotty in math class does not mean ‘no’. ‘No’ means ‘no’ when it’s clear and obvious what you are saying ‘no’ to, and you don’t follow it with ‘yes’. > > I don’t know how often cases like that happen, but that’s not the point. The point is that when your argument consists of a trite saying it gets ignored by anyone who can think of the obvious exceptions. And that’s how the ignorance propogates. I’m not even sure I’ve actually typed the words “no means no” on this thread (or anywhere else ftm). My argument has consisted of quite a bit more than a trite saying. You may be reading something into my posts that’s not there. (That is… if you’re reading my posts at all…) What you’re saying here does nothing to contradict, indeed hardly even addresses in any particularly informative way, anything I’ve said. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-misogyny/655771.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-misogyny/655771.md?page=7)