# What is "Original Sin"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109 "2013-10-01T17:10:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/201 "2013-10-14T21:26:44Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Annotation provides help with the translation between Hebrew and English. In the original Hebrew, it was “The Satan”, implying a position, not a name. The Satan poses a question to G-d, who directs Satan to test out the question with Job. The Satan in Job is a subordinate to G-d, not an independent agent. There is no evidence in the story -none- that G-d was deceived by the Satan. > [Job 1 NIV - Prologue - In the land of Uz there - Bible Gateway](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+1&version=NIV) A couple of points that need clarification here: \*Satan is not, nor ever has been, an “independent agent.” Such a thing does not actually exist if God is completely sovereign. - Who can “deceive” a God who is omniscient? and who even implied that? Now as to Job, God was well pleased with his righteousness and proclaimed it to Satan, knowing how he - “the accuser of the brethren” - would respond. Moreover, God also knew that Job would be able to withstand a “trial by fire.” initiated by Satan. even if it came down to what Satan called “skin for skin.” Once again, God won, Satan lost. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/202 "2013-10-14T22:19:29Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Any Jews out there are welcome to correct me on this, but my understanding is that Satan is not viewed as a particularly significant character in Jewish theology - certainly not any sort of “arch-enemy.” > > Seems reasonable to assume that the same held true for the Jews who actually wrote that part of the Bible. I can’t speak for a complete consensus, but I don’t recall every hearing anything about Satan in five years of Hebrew School and lots of sermons. I went to a Conservative shul, so I can’t speak for the Orthodox, but I’m pretty sure that you won’t hear about him in Reform temples either. I also believe that Job is understood to be a story about faith in God, and not history. Notice how it, unlike any other book, is set in no particular place in no particular time. And how anyone can read Job and see God and Satan as archenemies in it is beyond me. As has been mentioned, Satan is not doing anything without God’s permission. And, to make a common point, while Job came out of this in good shape, his original family didn’t do so well. But women and children were more or less equivalent to the livestock he also lost. BTW **Conservian** - Jewish Messiah? No, Jewish person who claimed to be the Messiah (maybe) but who flunked the prophecies and wound up not as king but as corpse. Those who lived near the events seemed to be notably unimpressed. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/203 "2013-10-14T23:36:14Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > Assumptions always seem reasonable, but in this case counter to what those Jewish Apostles were taught by a Jewish Messiah, and what those same Apostles wrote in the NT or the OT. Funny how virtually no Jews see it that way, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/204 "2013-10-14T23:40:05Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > Assumptions always seem reasonable, but in this case counter to what those Jewish Apostles were taught by a Jewish Messiah, and what those same Apostles wrote in the NT or the OT. And what _did_ Jesus’ apostles write in the Old Testament? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/205 "2013-10-15T12:25:13Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I’m sure someone told Muhammad that too > > a.k.a. be careful what you wish for. You do realize that Muhammad was directed by angel under God’s orders, to write the Koran, and there is just as much truth in that as any book including the Bible, all was written by other humans. that is proven so it is a matter of choice who one wants to believe. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/206 "2013-10-15T12:36:25Z")
Since God knows all things ahead of time( according to believers of the Bible) he knew humans would sin, he let a Monster(Satan) trick Adam and Eve, so it doesn’t make sense to me that a Loving , just, all knowing Being would then punish the Humans he created. Why he seems to bargain with Satan is also something to consider. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/207 "2013-10-15T17:49:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And what _did_ Jesus’ apostles write in the Old Testament? Also, do you have anything to say about the link I provided that shows why Jews don’t see Jesus as a messiah? ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/208 "2013-10-15T20:39:44Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Maybe somebody more knowledgeable can pitch in, but I thought that Satan went by a number of names in the original Hebrew/Greek. For example in Lot, he is referred to as The Satan, indicating that it was a position and not a person that was being referenced. I interpret that character as a special prosecutor. “HaSatan” in biblical Hebrew means “the adversary”. This use of the definite article in the Masoretic text always means a specific supernatural being (such as in the passage from Job), but “satan” without the article is ambiguous. There are cases where the non-articled form obviously refers to a regular (as opposed to a supernatural) “adversary”–e.g. in 1 Kings 11 where various people are described as “adversaries” of Israel. But there are cases where “satan” without the article seems to mean the prince of darkness–e.g. in 1 Chronicles 21 where “satan” stood up against Israel. The Greek LXX translated these differently; it uses the word o diabolos when the context (with or without the original article) seemed to mean Satan with a capital S, but often leaves a transliterated “satan” or another Greek equivalent for “adversary” when referring to common opponents. I should also note that Christians interpret several figures mentioned in the OT–Beelzebub, Lucifer, etc.–as other names for this same o diabolos aka Satan. ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/209 "2013-10-15T21:44:44Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Funny how virtually no Jews see it that way, isn’t it? It’s even funnier that no one bothered to ask any of the roughly 350,000 Messianic Christian Jews out there how they see it. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/210 "2013-10-15T21:46:00Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > It’s even funnier that no one bothered to ask any of the roughly 350,000 Messianic Christian Jews out there how they see it. Uh, I have a guess. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/211 "2013-10-15T21:50:00Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > It’s even funnier that no one bothered to ask any of the roughly 350,000 Messianic Christian Jews out there how they see it. 1. That’s sure a long term for “Christians” 2. I’d like to see a neutral cite for that number. ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/212 "2013-10-15T22:00:15Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Funny how virtually no Jews see it that way, isn’t it? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > And what _did_ Jesus’ apostles write in the Old Testament? This is a typo on my part: “and what those same Apostles wrote in the NT or the OT.” Should have read: and what those same Apostles wrote in the NT or on the OT. The Apostles quoted often from the OT prophets, as their writings were often of a prophetic nature. ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/213 "2013-10-15T22:12:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Also, do you have anything to say about the link I provided that shows why Jews don’t see Jesus as a messiah? Not really. Their ‘unbelief’ is no greater or lesser, or any more special than that of the gentiles. The rejection of Christ as Messiah by the Jewish elites - high priests & politically connected - was prophesied back in the OT, just as the salvation of many gentiles was also prophesied. ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/214 "2013-10-15T22:47:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. That’s sure a long term for “Christians” > 2. I’d like to see a neutral cite for that number. Christian Jews would suffice as well. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/215 "2013-10-15T22:58:00Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > Not really. Their ‘unbelief’ is no greater or lesser, or any more special than that of the gentiles. The rejection of Christ as Messiah by the Jewish elites - high priests & politically connected - was prophesied back in the OT, just as the salvation of many gentiles was also prophesied. It’s funny you concentrate on that prophecy…and ignore all the other ones that Jesus didn’t fulfill. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/216 "2013-10-15T23:01:34Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > Christian Jews would suffice as well. No, it won’t. They are Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Demeter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@Demeter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demeter)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/217 "2013-10-16T01:41:01Z")
The first unethical act of humankind was to exist. Previous to that we weren’t doing anything. After that we weren’t doing anything that could _not_ concievably be considered sinful. ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/218 "2013-10-16T03:30:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It’s funny you concentrate on that prophecy…and ignore all the other ones that Jesus didn’t fulfill. Fiction doesn’t much hold my interest. ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/219 "2013-10-16T03:45:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No, it won’t. They are Christians. Yep. Christians… that happen to be Jewish. Born again Jews are proud of their Faith and heritage and proclaim it through their ministries in Christ (Jews for Jesus) so as to get the attention of their own Jewish brothers & sisters. ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/220 "2013-10-16T03:51:52Z")
> [@Demeter](#): > > The first unethical act of humankind was to exist. Previous to that we weren’t doing anything. After that we weren’t doing anything that could _not_ concievably be considered sinful. So man kinda willed himself into existence:confused: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109.md?page=12)