# What is "Original Sin"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109 "2013-10-01T17:10:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/221 "2013-10-16T04:17:25Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > Yep. Christians… that happen to be Jewish. > Born again Jews are proud of their Faith and heritage and proclaim it through their ministries in Christ (Jews for Jesus) so as to get the attention of their own Jewish brothers & sisters. [Here are your “Jews For Jesus”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_for_Jesus)-in actuality a conservative Christian Organization founded in 1973 with between 30,000 and 125,00 people(the numbers depend on how overly enthusiastic a spokesperson is at the time.) > [@](#): > > One of the criticisms of Jews for Jesus surrounds the tactics they employ in their missionary and outreach programs. Critics say that the organization uses vague and misleading language along with deceptive tactics in its attempt to convert Jews to Christianity. These tactics include statements that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Jewish prophecy of Messiah and attempts by Jews for Jesus to interpret core principles of Judaism in an effort to bring these Jewish principles into accord with Christian doctrines. To this end, critics say that Jews for Jesus uses the ambiguity in the definition of “Jew” and “Jewish” to confuse their prospective converts into believing there is a possibility of one being a follower of both Christianity and Judaism simultaneously. Are their beliefs compatible with mainstream Judaism? > [@](#): > > Belief in Jesus as deity, son of God, or even a non-divine Christ/Messiah or Prophet (as in Islam), is held as incompatible with Judaism by all Jewish denominations. > In 1993 the Task Force on Missionaries and Cults of the Jewish Community Relations Council of New York (JCRCNY) issued a statement which has been endorsed by the four major Jewish denominations: Orthodox Judaism, Conservative Judaism, Reform Judaism, and Reconstructionist Judaism, as well as national Jewish organizations. Based on this statement, the Spiritual Deception Prevention Project at the JCRCNY stated: > > ``` > On several occasions leaders of the four major Jewish movements have signed on to joint statements opposing Hebrew-Christian theology and tactics. In part they said: "Though Hebrew Christianity claims to be a form of Judaism, it is not ... It deceptively uses the sacred symbols of Jewish observance ... as a cover to convert Jews to Christianity, a belief system antithetical to Judaism ... Hebrew Christians are in radical conflict with the communal interests and the destiny of the Jewish people. They have crossed an unbridgeable chasm by accepting another religion. Despite this separation, they continue to attempt to convert their former co-religionists." > > ``` No, not really. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/222 "2013-10-16T04:19:24Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > Yep. Christians… that happen to be Jewish. That makes as much sense as someone claiming that she has 6 kids through natural childbirth and yet is still a virgin. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/223 "2013-10-16T15:36:14Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > Yep. Christians… that happen to be Jewish. Just out of curiosity, are there any Christians who happen to be Muslim? ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/224 "2013-10-16T20:26:18Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Just out of curiosity, are there any Christians who happen to be Muslim? Christianity and Islam are like oil & water > [@Czarcasm](#): > > That makes as much sense as someone claiming that she has 6 kids through natural childbirth and yet is still a virgin. Maybe one day you’ll figure it out. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > [Here are your “Jews For Jesus”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_for_Jesus)-in actuality a conservative Christian Organization founded in 1973 with between 30,000 and 125,00 people(the numbers depend on how overly enthusiastic a spokesperson is at the time.)Are their beliefs compatible with mainstream Judaism?No, not really. Thanks for citing that link as it articulates specifics concerning my point about unbelief and Jews. ‘Born again believers,’ whether Jewish or gentile, are Spiritual brethren bonded by their Faith in Jesus as the Christ. Any and all outside of that Faith would be considered ‘unbelievers’ regardless of what kind of ‘religion’ they claim to abide by. That’s what I meant when I said Jewish unbelief is really no different than gentile unbelief, as both are destined for the same end result. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/225 "2013-10-16T20:46:43Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > Christianity and Islam are like oil & water So close, and yet so far. > [@Conservian](#): > > Thanks for citing that link as it articulates specifics concerning my point about unbelief and Jews. ‘Born again believers,’ whether Jewish or gentile, are Spiritual brethren bonded by their Faith in Jesus as the Christ. Any and all outside of that Faith would be considered ‘unbelievers’ regardless of what kind of ‘religion’ they claim to abide by. That’s what I meant when I said Jewish unbelief is really no different than gentile unbelief, as both are destined for the same end result. There are no Jewish “Born-Again Believers”-There are former Jews that were indoctrinated/conned by a Christian Conservative Group into converting from Judaism to Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/226 "2013-10-16T20:48:11Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > Christianity and Islam are like oil & water Why? Muslims for Jesus doesn’t sound any stupider than Jews for Jesus. It’s less alliterative, though, so… Crescents for Christ! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/227 "2013-10-16T20:52:18Z")
Mainstream Christian and Jewish groups overwhelmingly agree that Jews For Jesus is nothing but a wolf in sheep’s clothing, deceptive to the core and false in all its teachings. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/228 "2013-10-16T21:11:22Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > No, you got it. I didn’t say it made sense, I said it was a well-written folktale. The human condition, with our ability to harm ourselves and those around us in ways no animal could ever conceive of, is indeed much like being a child left alone with a gun on the table. Again, it fails miserably as an explanation, but it works great as a folktale. > > ETA: You forgot that it’s _not_ the snake who’s a lying scumbucket, but God. Everything the snake says is perfectly true. Part of what makes it a great story. To my mind, the most bizzare part of the story is that God doesn’t expell Adam and Eve for the sin of disobedience - he expells them out of fear (specifically, that they would eat from the tree of life and become immortal - and so, presumably, a threat). > [@](#): > > 21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. [Emphasis added] Also, I wonder if the “one of us” implies multiplicity in Hebrew. In the translation, it sounds like God is talking to other Gods (rather than to himself). That makes it even wierder! ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/229 "2013-10-16T21:11:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Mainstream Christian and Jewish groups overwhelmingly agree that Jews For Jesus is nothing but a wolf in sheep’s clothing, deceptive to the core and false in all its teachings. I agree, and I am unanimous in this! ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/230 "2013-10-16T22:43:41Z")
I have no problem if someone wants to convert from one religion to another. False witness is another matter entirely. Interestingly, there is a case of a Christian for Islam. An Episcopalian minister perceived similarities between Christianity and Islam, and adopted the Islamic faith: “Both religions say there’s only one God,” Redding said, “and that God is the same God. It’s very clear we are talking about the same God! So I haven’t shifted my allegiance.” The imam at the Islamic Center in Seattle, Washington, where Redding prays said she brings the best of both traditions to her beliefs. “Coming from an example of wanting to be Christ-like and coming from the perspective of wanting to follow the best example – the example of our prophet Mohammed – it all makes sense then,” Benjamin Shabazz said. The Christian minister was de-frocked. I’m ok with that, as one could argue that Redding shouldn’t be presenting Episcopalian orthodoxy while on this particular leg of her spiritual journey. Nonetheless, I understand that Islam is defined by the _shahada_: There is no god but God, Muhammad is the messenger of God. I don’t see a necessary conflict between that and the belief that Christ is our Savior. Jesus never claimed to be the only prophet. Mark 2:27: The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. That said, I would hope that Redding does not bear false witness by misrepresenting the beliefs of either Christian or Muslim. > **[Episcopal minister defrocked after becoming a Muslim - CNN.com](http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/02/muslim.minister.defrocked/index.html)** > > Ann Holmes Redding has what could be called a crisis of faiths. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/231 "2013-10-16T22:46:46Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > It’s even funnier that no one bothered to ask any of the roughly 350,000 Messianic Christian Jews out there how they see it. Why would we ask them? They’re Christians, and we’re not looking for a Christian perspective on the role of Satan in the Old Testament, we’re looking for a Jewish perspective. The Jews who wrote the Bible didn’t see Satan as God’s “arch-nemesis.” The Jews who followed the Bible for centuries before the birth of Christ didn’t see Satan as God’s arch-nemesis. And for the past two thousand years _since_ the birth of Christ, Jews haven’t seen Satan as God’s arch-nemesis. That there’s some small minority of born -again Christians who used to be Jews isn’t evidence of how the book has been interpreted within the culture that created it for the better part of the recorded history of human civilization. “Satan as arch-nemesis” is an explicitly Christian ideal that did not exist prior to the rise of Christianity as the dominant religion in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/232 "2013-10-16T23:18:09Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > Fiction doesn’t much hold my interest. So, you pretty much ignore the majority of OT prophecies, then, since, in your odd view any unfulfilled prophecy was fiction. OK by me. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/233 "2013-10-17T12:10:18Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > Not really. Their ‘unbelief’ is no greater or lesser, or any more special than that of the gentiles. The rejection of Christ as Messiah by the Jewish elites - high priests & politically connected - was prophesied back in the OT, just as the salvation of many gentiles was also prophesied. Where in the OT is there any Prophesies of Jesus Or converting of the gentiles? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/234 "2013-10-17T12:16:11Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > To my mind, the most bizzare part of the story is that God doesn’t expell Adam and Eve for the sin of disobedience - he expells them out of fear (specifically, that they would eat from the tree of life and become immortal - and so, presumably, a threat). > > [Emphasis added] > > Also, I wonder if the “one of us” implies multiplicity in Hebrew. In the translation, it sounds like God is talking to other Gods (rather than to himself). That makes it even wierder! I wonder why an all knowing powerful just being would know ahead of time how things would turn out would be unhappy about what his own creation did when he created them with flaws, and knew the out come! ---
**Author:** ![Demeter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@Demeter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demeter)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/235 "2013-10-17T14:51:58Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > So man kinda willed himself into existence:confused: Perhaps not- but he _was_ caught red-handed with it. ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/236 "2013-10-17T20:13:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So close, and yet so far.There are no Jewish “Born-Again Believers”-There are former Jews that were indoctrinated/conned by a Christian Conservative Group into converting from Judaism to Christianity. Yep. There were thousands and thousands of Jews that converted. Only they didn’t see Jesus as a "con-man. They saw Him as the Messiah. It was the jewish high priests - (The Pharisees) that saw Jesus as a sort of “con-man.” > [@jsgoddess](#): > > Why? Muslims for Jesus doesn’t sound any stupider than Jews for Jesus. It’s less alliterative, though, so… Crescents for Christ! LOL. A couple of basics for you to understand: The word “jew” is not only characteristic of religious affiliation, but also of ethnicity. Do you even understand what the word “Christ” means, and how it conflicts with the basic tenets of what Muslims believe? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Mainstream Christian and Jewish groups overwhelmingly agree that Jews For Jesus is nothing but a wolf in sheep’s clothing, deceptive to the core and false in all its teachings. That’s opinion, and has nothing to do with the fact that Jews convert to Christianity. You said they didn’t exist, which is a ridiculous statement. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I have no problem if someone wants to convert from one religion to another. False witness is another matter entirely. > > Interestingly, there is a case of a Christian for Islam. An Episcopalian minister perceived similarities between Christianity and Islam, and adopted the Islamic faith: “Both religions say there’s only one God,” Redding said, “and that God is the same God. It’s very clear we are talking about the same God! So I haven’t shifted my allegiance.” > > The imam at the Islamic Center in Seattle, Washington, where Redding prays said she brings the best of both traditions to her beliefs. > > “Coming from an example of wanting to be Christ-like and coming from the perspective of wanting to follow the best example – the example of our prophet Mohammed – it all makes sense then,” Benjamin Shabazz said. The Christian minister was de-frocked. I’m ok with that, as one could argue that Redding shouldn’t be presenting Episcopalian orthodoxy while on this particular leg of her spiritual journey. Nonetheless, I understand that Islam is defined by the _shahada_: There is no god but God, Muhammad is the messenger of God. I don’t see a necessary conflict between that and the belief that Christ is our Savior. Jesus never claimed to be the only prophet. Mark 2:27: The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. > > That said, I would hope that Redding does not bear false witness by misrepresenting the beliefs of either Christian or Muslim. > > [http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/02/muslim.minister.defrocked/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/02/muslim.minister.defrocked/index.html) She already did bear false witness the moment she opined that Christianity and Islam were compatible. > [@Miller](#): > > Why would we ask them? They’re Christians, and we’re not looking for a Christian perspective on the role of Satan in the Old Testament, we’re looking for a Jewish perspective. The Jews who wrote the Bible didn’t see Satan as God’s “arch-nemesis.” The Jews who followed the Bible for centuries before the birth of Christ didn’t see Satan as God’s arch-nemesis. And for the past two thousand years _since_ the birth of Christ, Jews haven’t seen Satan as God’s arch-nemesis. That there’s some small minority of born -again Christians who used to be Jews isn’t evidence of how the book has been interpreted within the culture that created it for the better part of the recorded history of human civilization. “Satan as arch-nemesis” is an explicitly Christian ideal that did not exist prior to the rise of Christianity as the dominant religion in Europe. The opinion expressed here was that “The Satan” of the OT is a different character than that of the NT. However there is no evidence of that at all. But, there is evidence in the OT that Satan deceived Eve, resulting in the fall of mankind from the grace of the “Most High,” and stood up against Israel - provoking King David. And again, Satan’s jealous nature - accusing Job of having a ‘conditional’ faithfulness in God. > [@tomndebb](#): > > So, you pretty much ignore the majority of OT prophecies, then, since, in your odd view any unfulfilled prophecy was fiction. > > OK by me. Sounds like you pretty much ‘ignored’ what I actually said, and why? > [@monavis](#): > > Where in the OT is there any Prophesies of Jesus Or converting of the gentiles? Paul spoke of it in Romans 9:25/26 25 As he says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people; and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,” 26 and, “In the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’” Look in the OT - Hosea - to confirm the quote. As for the coming of Christ, there’s countless prophecies in the OT. Google; OT prophecies about the Messiah’s coming. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/237 "2013-10-17T20:33:37Z")
It’s like viewing the Bible through a Crazy Straw. Wow. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/238 "2013-10-17T21:08:07Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > LOL. A couple of basics for you to understand: > The word “jew” is not only characteristic of religious affiliation, but also of ethnicity. > Do you even understand what the word “Christ” means, and how it conflicts with the basic tenets of what Muslims believe? Crescents for Christ makes as much sense as Jews for Jesus. You can LOL all you want. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/239 "2013-10-17T21:49:16Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > Look in the OT - Hosea - to confirm the quote. Quote confirmed. But this has nothing to do with any messiah. God is talking about how Israel has lost his favor and that now Judah is his favorite. Two different _countries_. So, sorry. No go. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/240 "2013-10-17T22:17:53Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > Yep. There were thousands and thousands of Jews that converted. Only they didn’t see Jesus as a "con-man. They saw Him as the Messiah. It was the jewish high priests - (The Pharisees) that saw Jesus as a sort of “con-man.” You are aware that the new cult did not catch on in Judea, right? How odd that the people closest to the so-called miracle were unimpressed. One of the historic justifications for anti-Semitism is that Jews must be evil for rejecting Christ. > [@](#): > > LOL. A couple of basics for you to understand: > The word “jew” is not only characteristic of religious affiliation, but also of ethnicity. > Do you even understand what the word “Christ” means, and how it conflicts with the basic tenets of what Muslims believe? Christ conflicts with Judaism just as much. Islam at least does not include the absurdity of a son of God, which is Roman and Greek, not from the actual Bible. Mohammed at least was a successful leader. Perhaps Christ’s last words were “I meant for this to happen. Really. Ow.” > [@](#): > > The opinion expressed here was that “The Satan” of the OT is a different character than that of the NT. However there is no evidence of that at all. But, there is evidence in the OT that Satan deceived Eve, resulting in the fall of mankind from the grace You’ll give us a cite in the OT for this statement of course? Since my teachers, who could actually read Hebrew, seem to be unaware of it. In fact this contention is totally ridiculous. First, if Satan did such a horrible thing, why were he and God so buddy buddy after it happened? Second, while there is always the problem of holding two innocents with no knowledge of good and evil accountable for violating a rule, it is a bit less of a problem if they were fooled by a plain old snake rather than an immortal and powerful figure. If an adult cajoles a three-year-old into doing something wrong, do you punish the three-year-old forever? Now, original sin is a great marketing tool. It is exactly the same as fly by night drug companies that make up diseases that people will decide they have and then buy their snake oil. “Feel healthy? Plenty of pep? Don’t be fooled - you very likely have bonkus of the conkus! if you don’t take our pills now in 20 or 30 years you will inevitably lose your vigor! Act now!” of course the Christianity scam is even better since you don’t know if you have a case of original sin until after you die. A scam? Damn right it is a scam. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109.md?page=13)