# What is "Original Sin"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109 "2013-10-01T17:10:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/261 "2013-10-21T16:05:10Z")
> [@ruben4ruben](#): > > Answer: I think that the first one is about the final restoration of mankind after Judgement and the things described in Daniel 2:44, Matthew 24 and Revelation of course. Let’s call it the happy end. PS I identify “Jerusalem” in this verse as the spiritual Jerusalem mentioned in Revelation among others. The Jerusalem in heaven. Not the physical Jerusalem or the current nation of Israel or any location on earth. The old Jerusalem was utterly rejected in 70 AD. (that’s worthy of it’s own topic) > > About the second one i personally feel that refers to the fulfilling of the _seed_ of Genesis 3:15. Whom i identify as The Messiah/Khristos being Jesus Christ who i believe indeed blessed, did something great for all nations, races and people. (but that’s another topic) > > I gotta rush to the shops so i can’t answer in greater detail right now. Sorry. > > **Deuteronomy 10:17** The Lord is your God. He is the God of gods and the Lord of lords. He is the great God. He is the amazing and powerful fighter. To him everyone is the same. He does not accept money to change his mind. > > **Ruth 1:16** and Ruth proceeded to say: “Do not plead with me to abandon you, to turn back from accompanying you; for where you go I shall go, and where you spend the night I shall spend the night. Your people will be my people, and your God my God. > (Ruth was Moabite and became an ancestor of King David) > > Moses’ wife was Kushite and God got angry when Aaron and Miriam complained about it: Read **Numbers 12** > > Rahab, from Jericho, was also non-Hebrew and was favored and also became ancestor of King David. > > **Most important is this statement:** > > Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thy heart, dost thou go in to possess their land; but for the wickedness of these nations Jehovah thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may establish the word which Jehovah sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob…” **Deuteronomy 9:5** (American Standard Version) > > Not because of your righteousness or the uprightness of your heart are you going in to possess their land; but because of the wickedness of these nations the Lord your God is driving them out from before you, and that he may confirm the word which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition > Compare that to the entire book of Jeremiah and see that God, whether it’s OT or NT, is not partial to anyone because of **race** , ancestry or any reason whatsoever. It’s about your heart, your deeds, your faith. Every single time the Hebrews as individuals or states, Israel or Judah, strayed to worship other gods or did wrong God judged them. The destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon was not without reason. (read Jeremiah) > > The special relation with Hebrews or “Jews” started because God favored Abraham because that man had faith and a good heart. So God chose him to carry his promise of a seed to restore/bless/liberate all mankind. Genesis 3:15. 28:14 What does any of this ‘wall of text’ have to do with the Messianic Prophecies fullfillment (or not) or the OP topic of original sin? ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/262 "2013-10-21T22:23:11Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Nonsense. > > Here are a list of verses recognized by Jews as foretelling the Messiah as identified on the indicated web site from the electronic Jewish Encyclopedia: > [http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=510&letter=M](http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=510&letter=M) > > Future ideal king: > Isaiah 9: 1 - 6 > Isaiah 11: 1 - 10 > Isaiah 32: 1 - 5 > > (The Immanuel passage of Isaiah 7: 14, alluded to by Matthew (1: 23) is not considered Messianic in Judaism.) > > Further: > > Micah 5: 1, 3 - 8 > Jeremiah 23: 5 - 6 and 32: 15 - 16 > Jeremiah 30: 9 > Hosea 3: 5 > Ezekiel 17: 23 > Ezekiel 34: 23 ff > Ezekiel 37: 24 ff > Haggai 2: 23 > Zechariah 3: 8 > Zechariah 6: 12 > Zechariah 9: 9 - 10 > > (In Deutero-Isaiah, the Jewish people, not an individual messiah, will be the source of the salvation of humanity. So, Isaiah 42: 1 - 6, 49: 1 - 6, 50: 4 - 9, 52: 13-53: 12 are not messianic in the sense of a person of the messiah. Although they do refer to the “servant of God” who will convert the nations to the service of God, the “servant of God” in Jewish theology is the Jewish people, and these passages are not considered messianic.) > > I will note that most of your arguments appear to be taken pretty much directly from the Moody Bible Institute or the Scofield Bible, neither of which has any credibility among the vast majority of Christian scholars, representing attempts to simply hide from facts (or invent their own) to rationalize a particular _interpretation_ of Scripture. > > As to the “number of OT verses” that the Christian writers employed: cherry-picking verses is a long established human tradition. So what? > A clear example of cherry picking employed by those on your side of the debate is the reference to the Immanuel passage of Isaiah 7:14, alluded to by Matthew 1:23. On the one hand, such folks follow Matthew in claiming a prophecy of the virgin birth. However, Matthew was quoting from the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures in which the Hebrew word for “young woman” was translated rather sloppily to Greek as “virgin.” The very same people then turn around and reject Tobit, Judith, 1st Maccabees, 2nd Maccabees, The Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus/Sirach, Baruch, The Letter of Jeremiah, and three of the stories found in Daniel based on the idea that they appeared in the Septuagint and not in the Hebrew scriptures. So the Septuagint is > > "I assure you that I do know and understand these verses and that many of them are not fulfilled by Jesus’s life on earth or death and resurrection. Continuing in your approach to debate, in which you claim to know what other posters do or do not understand, to make one claim and terrible to make a different claim. First, you continue to build upon the false narrative that; the only certifiable “Jews” are those bound by their belief in The Torah-Judaism. Therefore, any mention of “Jews” existing outside of Judaism is, “nonsense.” Secondly, and with all due respect, how can you or any Jews bound by The Torah possibly understand how OT prophecy even applies when many pertain to Christ’s 2nd Coming? The reason they rejected Jesus as Messiah in the first place was because they were expecting a mighty world ruler of sorts, completely missing those prophecies pertaining to Christ as The Sacrificial Lamb, without blemish. Even today, Jews who resist and denounce Jesus as The Christ, can be likened unto the Jewish high priests during Christ time - Pharisees. Finally, as to many of the prophecies Jesus spoke of (those some posters here claimed went ‘unfulfilled’) these pertained to things/events that will occur just prior to His 2nd Coming - as “The Mighty God.” ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/263 "2013-10-21T23:16:12Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Mark C 13 verse30. Also Mark C 8v39 and Matthew16 v 27-28 return while some standing there were still alive. Luke 21 v 6-12 Note: Many of these prophecies Jesus is referring to are those which are to occur just prior to His 2nd Coming. Mark 13:30 is pertaining to the generation that is going to witness all those prophecies which Christ talks about in preceding verses. Also Christ applies the word “you” as in ALL “you" who believe.” Now, Mark 8:39 “Some of them that stand here,…” Again, pertaining to those that would be standing “here” at that time. Jesus did not say: “some of you that are standing here now” Matthew 16:27-28 Same exact as Mark 8:39: Luke 21: 6-12 Again, Jesus says “you” as representing ALL of those who ‘believe.’ One could be of the opinion that these verses probably apply more so to believers of this day, as “wars and rumors of war” grow fiercer and far more consequential by the day in the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/264 "2013-10-21T23:32:29Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > Even today, Jews who resist and denounce Jesus as The Christ, can be likened unto the Jewish high priests during Christ time - Pharisees. > > Finally, as to many of the prophecies Jesus spoke of (those some posters here claimed went ‘unfulfilled’) these pertained to things/events that will occur just prior to His 2nd Coming - as “The Mighty God.” So, the prophecies are unfulfilled. I mean, you put scare quotes around the word, but it’s an accurate word, right? These are not just claims of some posters here. These are prophecies that you, yourself, are saying have not been fulfilled. You add a yet to the sentence, I know, but the yet doesn’t change the meaning. “I haven’t done the dishes” and “I haven’t done the dishes yet” both mean the dishes are not done. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/265 "2013-10-21T23:51:30Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > So, the prophecies are unfulfilled. I mean, you put scare quotes around the word, but it’s an accurate word, right? These are not just claims of some posters here. These are prophecies that you, yourself, are saying have not been fulfilled. You add a yet to the sentence, I know, but the yet doesn’t change the meaning. > > “I haven’t done the dishes” and “I haven’t done the dishes yet” both mean the dishes are not done. yeah - but you will eventually do the dishes, right? or are you waiting until they are ALL dirty? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/266 "2013-10-22T00:21:06Z")
> [@simster](#): > > yeah - but you will eventually do the dishes, right? or are you waiting until they are ALL dirty? I was rather hoping Jesus would do them. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/267 "2013-10-22T00:30:36Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I was rather hoping Jesus would do them. He was coming to do them but he got hung up. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/268 "2013-10-22T00:44:54Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I was rather hoping Jesus would do them. The sad part is that I’m sure some religionist somewhere could easily find a Bible verse and “interpret” it to say exactly that. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/269 "2013-10-22T00:47:49Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > He was coming to do them but he got hung up. Oy, let’s try to keep the offensive stuff to a minimum, eh? This is - contrary to my expectations - becoming a real debate. No sense derailing it with jokes that will offend or side-track the debaters. No warning issued. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/270 "2013-10-22T01:04:42Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > First, you continue to build upon the false narrative that; the only certifiable “Jews” are those bound by their belief in The Torah-Judaism. Therefore, any mention of “Jews” existing outside of Judaism is, “nonsense.” Nope. Actually, you continue to build on the false narrative that Baptists pretending to be Jews and Jewish apostates who have converted to Christianity are in any way competent to speak for the beliefs of Jews. If you get to claim that the persons in question are Jews, then a number of posters on this board would be happy to point out that the participants in [The Clergy Project](http://clergyproject.org/) are Christians. You do not get to determine who is Jewish. Jewish people do. When a Baptist preacher pretends to be Jewish, that does not make him Jewish. When a person sets aside his or her Judaism to become Christian, they no longer are eligible to speak for Judaism. The verses I cited have been employed by Jews for over 2,000 years to identify the Messiah. It makes no sense to claim that Christians can override more than 2,000 years of history to impose their own beliefs on Jews. > [@Conservian](#): > > Secondly, and with all due respect, how can you or any Jews bound by The Torah possibly understand how OT prophecy even applies when many pertain to Christ’s 2nd Coming? No Jew could–or would bother to. However, the discussion was in regard to the predictions of the Messiah and the fact that Jesus did not fulfill most of those prophecies in his life should cause any sincere believer to give some thought to what that means. > [@Conservian](#): > > The reason they rejected Jesus as Messiah in the first place was because they were expecting a mighty world ruler of sorts, completely missing those prophecies pertaining to Christ as The Sacrificial Lamb, without blemish. Well, since none of the “sacrificial lamb” verses were considered “messianic” in the time before the death of Jesus, it is hardly the fault of Jews that they would not see those verses in the same way. > [@Conservian](#): > > Even today, Jews who resist and denounce Jesus as The Christ, can be likened unto the Jewish high priests during Christ time - Pharisees. Only in the truly warped version of reality that some (_i.e._, too many uneducated) Christians view the world. First, the number of Jews in this world who “_resist and denounce Jesus as The Christ_” is a very tiny number of people. Most Jews would consider it a waste of effort to “denounce” someone whom they do not believe is anything more than an itinerant preacher. (Rather more Jews might denounce _Christianity_, based on the horrible crimes committed by Christians against Jews.) Next, equating High Priests and Pharisees demonstrates serious ignorance. The Pharisees and the Sadducees were political factions who vied for the High Priesthood and any given High Priest might be a Pharisee, might be a Sadducee, or might be not affiliated with either group. Finally, and actually more importantly, an uneducated reading of the Gospels has left far too many Christians with a wrong idea about the Pharisees. The Pharisees were the good guys. They believed in an afterlife (as opposed to the Sadducees who did not). The whole idea of a resurrection arose among the Pharisees so that when Jesus came, there was an idea around which Christians could rally. There is no mention of a resurrection in Scripture prior to the Books of the Maccabees, (ironically now rejected by Protestants and Evangelicals). The reason that Jesus is quoted as rebuking (some) Pharisees is that he was appealing to the best and brightest of the Jewish religious leaders to make sure that they did not lose their way. Christians who use the word Pharisee as an epithet are simply demonstrating their own ignorance to the times in which Jesus lived. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/271 "2013-10-22T13:10:10Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > First, you continue to build upon the false narrative that; the only certifiable “Jews” are those bound by their belief in The Torah-Judaism. Therefore, any mention of “Jews” existing outside of Judaism is, “nonsense.” > > Secondly, and with all due respect, how can you or any Jews bound by The Torah possibly understand how OT prophecy even applies when many pertain to Christ’s 2nd Coming? The reason they rejected Jesus as Messiah in the first place was because they were expecting a mighty world ruler of sorts, completely missing those prophecies pertaining to Christ as The Sacrificial Lamb, without blemish. > Even today, Jews who resist and denounce Jesus as The Christ, can be likened unto the Jewish high priests during Christ time - Pharisees. > > Finally, as to many of the prophecies Jesus spoke of (those some posters here claimed went ‘unfulfilled’) these pertained to things/events that will occur just prior to His 2nd Coming - as “The Mighty God.” According to Matthew, and Mark, Jesus said he was going to return in His Father’s Glory with his angels before some of the people standing there listening to him had seen death. Some say it was the resurrection he was talking about, but the resurrection was in secret,(apparently they didn’t believe Jesus saying he would resurrect in 3 days. He also was quoted as saying it didn’t mean generations as we think of it now, the world would end in that generation, Some sects claim (I suppose because it didn’t happen) that it meant something different. But Matthew wrote there was 14 generations between David and Jesus . just as we use the word today! ---
**Author:** ![ruben4ruben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@ruben4ruben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruben4ruben)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/272 "2013-10-22T20:37:51Z")
Jesus met all the foretold requirements and prophecies that would identify the Messiah. The most important one people overlooked is the _time_ the Messiah was foretold to be born. It’s all nonsense and uninteresting if you’re an atheist or don’t believe/value the Old Testament or Tanakh. Then it doesn’t matter at all of course and you need not waste your time with this. Also if you value the Talmud or other Rabbinic teachings above Tanakh you need not waste time with this. However, for those living then and living today that claim to believe and follow the Old Testament or Tanakh… The problem rises that if Jesus/Jeshua of Nazareth was NOT the Messiah they do not identify another. What i mean to say is that their **own books** and their own faith proclaimed a certain time that the Messiah would appear. Let’s say that JC was not the Messiah… it is strange there is no claim of another one. I’m **not** saying this proves JC to be the one. I just find it strange as many Jews were excitedly expecting the Messiah to be born at that time. Prophecy in **Daniel 9:25** (69 weeks: 1 week = 7 years makes 483 years) **Nehemiah 2:1, 5-8** (474 BC Artaxerxes’ 1st year as king, 455 BC his 20th year) 455 BC + 483 = the year 29. (when JC was baptized and came forward) Besides the prophecies about Shiloh aka the Messiah there are also prophecies about a prophet that would appear _before_ him. One who would prepare the way before him. (John the Baptist) The Messiah was foretold to be of certain lineage. (King David) Since Jerusalem was destroyed and burnt utterly by the Roman Empire’s forces under general Titus… …the necessary birth certificates **every Jew** needed to participate in social live, do certain transactions, or enter certain professions are all gone. GONE. That’s why the temple has **never** been rebuilt and Jews have rabbis but no high priest, no Levites and nobody can make a verifiable claim to be of **any tribe**. So one risks getting insulted, beaten or shot if trying to restore the temple or claim to be of Levite lineage. (necessary for being a priest) So it’s a virtually impossible task to claim or check to be of David’s lineage. Both Jesus’mother and stepfather descend from King David and the tribe of Judah. One via David’s son Nathan and the other via David’s son Solomon. Matthew 1:1-17(Joseph) and Luke 3:23-38. (Mary, not Joseph, her father was He’li) Without lineage documents you were a bit of an outcast in that society. Jesus fulfilled **every** prophecy given to identify the Messiah. Even the amount of blood money he would be sold for. For more on Messianic prophecies: [http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-teach/jesus-christ-the-promised-messiah/](http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-teach/jesus-christ-the-promised-messiah/) and [http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-teach/how-daniels-prophecy-foretells-the-messiahs-arrival/](http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-teach/how-daniels-prophecy-foretells-the-messiahs-arrival/) ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/273 "2013-10-22T21:16:43Z")
> [@ruben4ruben](#): > > Jesus met all the foretold requirements and prophecies that would identify the Messiah. The most important one people overlooked is the _time_ the Messiah was foretold to be born. > > It’s all nonsense and uninteresting if you’re an atheist or don’t believe/value the Old Testament or Tanakh. Then it doesn’t matter at all of course and you need not waste your time with this. Also if you value the Talmud or other Rabbinic teachings above Tanakh you need not waste time with this. so - we ‘athiests’ can’t have a scholarly interest here? and , of course - you dismiss things that disagree with your premise - without any reason why. > [@ruben4ruben](#): > > However, for those living then and living today that claim to believe and follow the Old Testament or Tanakh… The problem rises that if Jesus/Jeshua of Nazareth was NOT the Messiah they do not identify another. Perhaps because there were none? > [@ruben4ruben](#): > > What i mean to say is that their **own books** and their own faith proclaimed a certain time that the Messiah would appear. > Let’s say that JC was not the Messiah… it is strange there is no claim of another one. I’m **not** saying this proves JC to be the one. > I just find it strange as many Jews were excitedly expecting the Messiah to be born at that time. yeah, failed prophecies and missed expecations NEVER happen, do they? > [@ruben4ruben](#): > > Prophecy in **Daniel 9:25** (69 weeks: 1 week = 7 years makes 483 years) > **Nehemiah 2:1, 5-8** (474 BC Artaxerxes’ 1st year as king, 455 BC his 20th year) > 455 BC + 483 = the year 29. (when JC was baptized and came forward) Got anything not JW speak that backs that up? > [@ruben4ruben](#): > > Besides the prophecies about Shiloh aka the Messiah there are also prophecies about a prophet that would appear _before_ him. One who would prepare the way before him. (John the Baptist) > > The Messiah was foretold to be of certain lineage. (King David) > Since Jerusalem was destroyed and burnt utterly by the Roman Empire’s forces under general Titus… > > …the necessary birth certificates **every Jew** needed to participate in social live, do certain transactions, or enter certain professions are all gone. GONE. > > That’s why the temple has **never** been rebuilt and Jews have rabbis but no high priest, no Levites and nobody can make a verifiable claim to be of **any tribe**. > So one risks getting insulted, beaten or shot if trying to restore the temple or claim to be of Levite lineage. (necessary for being a priest) So it’s a virtually impossible task to claim or check to be of David’s lineage. whats this got to do with Jesus claim? only that no one can ‘claim’ to be the messiah since that destruction? so what - has nothing to do with JC. > [@ruben4ruben](#): > > Both Jesus’mother and stepfather descend from King David and the tribe of Judah. One via David’s son Nathan and the other via David’s son Solomon. > Matthew 1:1-17(Joseph) and Luke 3:23-38. (Mary, not Joseph, her father was He’li) circular logic - the persons writing the two gospels already accepted him as such, and as you said, there curretnly is no way to prove it - so using a ‘christian’ text to identify the ‘accepted messiah’ is disingenuous > [@ruben4ruben](#): > > Without lineage documents you were a bit of an outcast in that society. > > Jesus fulfilled **every** prophecy given to identify the Messiah. Even the amount of blood money he would be sold for. > For more on Messianic prophecies: [http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-teach/jesus-christ-the-promised-messiah/](http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-teach/jesus-christ-the-promised-messiah/) > > and [http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-teach/how-daniels-prophecy-foretells-the-messiahs-arrival/](http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-teach/how-daniels-prophecy-foretells-the-messiahs-arrival/) Got anything outside of JW literature to back up any of your claims? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/274 "2013-10-22T21:29:41Z")
It really doesn’t matter what the linage of Jesus’ _adopted_ father was, and Mary’s linage is nowhere near as established as some would make it out to be. ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/275 "2013-10-22T21:55:56Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > So, the prophecies are unfulfilled. I mean, you put scare quotes around the word, but it’s an accurate word, right? These are not just claims of some posters here. These are prophecies that you, yourself, are saying have not been fulfilled. You add a yet to the sentence, I know, but the yet doesn’t change the meaning. > > “I haven’t done the dishes” and “I haven’t done the dishes yet” both mean the dishes are not done. To say something “went unfulfilled” implies a failure of accomplishment. To say something is still unfulfilled suggest no fulfillment as of yet. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/276 "2013-10-22T22:08:19Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > To say something “went unfulfilled” implies a failure of accomplishment. To say something is still unfulfilled suggest no fulfillment as of yet. The prophecies are unfulfilled. ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/277 "2013-10-22T22:23:07Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > According to Matthew, and Mark, Jesus said he was going to return in His Father’s Glory with his angels before some of the people standing there listening to him had seen death. Some say it was the resurrection he was talking about, but the resurrection was in secret,(apparently they didn’t believe Jesus saying he would resurrect in 3 days. He also was quoted as saying it didn’t mean generations as we think of it now, the world would end in that generation, Some sects claim (I suppose because it didn’t happen) that it meant something different. But Matthew wrote there was 14 generations between David and Jesus . just as we use the word today! Post the quote(s) then make your claim of what you think Jesus was saying. “Some say?” Who cares. What did/does Scripture say? Primer: No one among the Apostles knew what was going on just after Jesus’ crucifixion. They were mainly in a state of confusion, fear and utter dismay. It wasn’t until Christ appeared to them after His resurrection and told them to hold fast until the promise of “The Comforter” was fulfilled that they would understand fully what was going on: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/278 "2013-10-22T22:26:56Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > The prophecies are unfulfilled. Yes, some are still unfulfilled. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/279 "2013-10-22T23:01:21Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > Yes, some are still unfulfilled. _All_ that aren’t wildly imaginatively reinterpreted verses are still unfulfilled. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/280 "2013-10-22T23:14:49Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > Post the quote(s) then make your claim of what you think Jesus was saying. > > “Some say?” Who cares. What did/does Scripture say? > > Primer: No one among the Apostles knew what was going on just after Jesus’ crucifixion. They were mainly in a state of confusion, fear and utter dismay. It wasn’t until Christ appeared to them after His resurrection and told them to hold fast until the promise of “The Comforter” was fulfilled that they would understand fully what was going on: > But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Hmmm - seems THomas got left out of that - his Gospel has been rejected - much of the book of acts (after the holy ghost) talks about arguments between them on rules, so - doesn’t seem that did much either - they didn’t understand while he was here, they didnt understand after he left - we still don’t understand today - if we did, there’d be a lot less quibbling over it. > [@Conservian](#): > > Yes, some are still unfulfilled. How about providing something that ‘was’ fullfilled? Empty promises are still empty promises - yes, I will eventually let you have a puppy - any day now - really - [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109.md?page=15)