# What is "Original Sin"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109 "2013-10-01T17:10:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![ruben4ruben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@ruben4ruben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruben4ruben)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/141 "2013-10-11T19:49:35Z")
I said the term. And that’s what i was referring to. I specifically pointed to the wikipedia link about the man that coined the phrase and i clearly meant his term. I do apologise for not being a bit more careful in my wordings and not doing that little bit of extra research. My bad. If you feel upset about something i said and your feelings got hurt i’m sorry. I forgot how sensitive you are of everything i say. But i humbly thank you for the relentless tracking and screening of my every post to the letter. I feel appreciated. I’ve said it before; i can always count on you my old friend. I look forward to your comments on my next topic. Your tireless work keeps me sharp and brings out my best work. Thank you. PS > [@](#): > > That’s bullshit - now isn’t it? Why do you so often need to use those words? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/142 "2013-10-11T19:53:10Z")
> [@ruben4ruben](#): > > If you feel upset about something i said and your feelings got hurt i’m sorry. I forgot how sensitive you are of everything i say. Following up on your warning in the other thread: if you don’t stop talking to other posters like this, it’s going to cause problems for you. Tone it down unless you’re in the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/143 "2013-10-11T19:54:10Z")
> [@ruben4ruben](#): > > I said the term. And that’s what i was referring to. I specifically pointed to the wikipedia link about the man that coined the phrase and i clearly meant his term. I do apologise for not being a bit more careful in my wordings and not doing that little bit of extra research. My bad. > > If you feel upset about something i said and your feelings got hurt i’m sorry. I forgot how sensitive you are of everything i say. But i humbly thank you for the relentless tracking and screening of my every post to the letter. I feel appreciated. > > I’ve said it before; i can always count on you my old friend. I look forward to your comments on my next topic. Your tireless work keeps me sharp and brings out my best work. > > Thank you. > PS Why do you so often need to use those words? nm - ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/144 "2013-10-11T20:00:42Z")
> [@simster](#): > > nm - Good idea. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/145 "2013-10-11T20:01:54Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > Good idea. really, why? My decision to disengage after a moderator steps in is proper form - why would you want to attack on that? ---
**Author:** ![ruben4ruben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@ruben4ruben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruben4ruben)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/146 "2013-10-11T20:03:42Z")
Following up on your warning in the other thread: if you don’t stop talking to other posters like this, it’s going to cause problems for you. Tone it down unless you’re in the Pit. > [@](#): > > If you feel upset about something i said and your feelings got hurt i’m sorry. I forgot how sensitive you are of everything i say. But i humbly thank you for the relentless tracking and screening of my every post to the letter. I feel appreciated. Did i break any SDMB rules with these words? Did i curse or insult or use hate speech? Which SDMB rules did i break here? I honestly don’t understand how this is out of tone when someone called me a MF liar a few days ago and nothing happened. Was that acceptable? ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/147 "2013-10-11T20:04:06Z")
> [@simster](#): > > really, why? > > My decision to disengage after a moderator steps in is proper form - why would you want to attack on that? I said it sincerely. Honest. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/148 "2013-10-11T20:16:48Z")
> [@ruben4ruben](#): > > Did i break any SDMB rules with these words? Did i curse or insult or use hate speech? On the off chance you’re serious: it sounds like a snide remark about **simster** being easily offended. I advise you to steer clear of anything that sounds like that. > [@](#): > > Which SDMB rules did i break here? Our main rule here is “Don’t be a jerk.” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/149 "2013-10-11T21:47:19Z")
> [@ruben4ruben](#): > > . . . someone called me a MF liar a few days ago and nothing happened. Was that in Great Debates? Was that in The BBQ Pit? Was it in some other forum? Did you report it? We don’t claim to see every problem. If you do not report the problem, it is quite possible that no Mod will see it. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/150 "2013-10-12T01:50:02Z")
> [@CJJ](#): > > The RCC allows for considerable wiggle-room on Genesis 3, basically saying the particular details of the story don’t matter and do not need to be taken as historic truths. What they do insist upon, however, is that humanity was once in a blissful state of grace, then committed some act against God which cost them that grace, and that all humanity is descended from that act. The RCC will even concede–albeit with some strong caveats–that humanity did not necessarily descend biologically from one set of parents, but that somehow–glosses by the ever-convenient “it’s a mystery”–humanity shares in that act of disobedience. > [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](#): > > I’m not a believer anymore, and when I was I never thought much about Original Sin. But this seems interesting, so I’ll take a whack at it. > > The evolution of _H. sapiens_ can be seen as a process where a species of mindless animals became a species of thinking, feeling people, imbued with immortal souls. Animals cannot sin, because they have no concept of right or wrong. Humans, with our superior intellect, are unique in that we can make such a distinction, and therefor we are capable of sin. It stands to reason that at some point in evolution our ancestors ceased being mindless animals and became thinking, feeling people, imbued with immortal souls.\* At that point original sin became part of the human condition. It wasn’t an act, as much as it was a change in the nature of humanity (or pre-humanity, as it may be). > > In the parable of Adam and Eve eating the fruit changed the first people in some fundamental way. In reality, it was evolution that changed our mindless, animal ancestors into people capable of sin. > > \*In truth, I think it was more of a gradual change from mindless animal to thinking, feeling person. Also, I don’t have any reason to think souls exist. FWIW, I once attended a conference at a Catholic theology school on precisely this topic. These two posts are much clearer than anything presented at the conference, but otherwise seem right in line with what was said there. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Why should Mankind be tainted with Original Sin if the reason is because two _fictional_ characters in a poorly-written parable were tricked into doing something stupid? Do we look down on foxes because a fictional fox had a bad case of sour grapes? Be fair. Many parts of the Bible are horrendously written, but Genesis 2-3 isn’t poorly written at all. Taken as a folktale on its own terms, it’s beautifully told and powerfully captures the essence of the human condition. It fails as an etiology of sin, but I’m not convinced that was at all its original purpose. And even if it was, that’s a philosophical failure, not an aesthetic one. Keep in mind, one doesn’t usually expect literary qualities from a folktale (_folktale_ and _literature_ being something like opposite points on a spectrum). Nevertheless, I would defy you to find any narrative story from the pre-Classical world that holds up as well according to modern literary tastes. It’s certainly a hell of a lot better than any of the business with Lot! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/151 "2013-10-12T02:21:29Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > FWIW, I once attended a conference at a Catholic theology school on precisely this topic. These two posts are much clearer than anything presented at the conference, but otherwise seem right in line with what was said there. > > Be fair. Many parts of the Bible are horrendously written, but Genesis 2-3 isn’t poorly written at all. Taken as a folktale on its own terms, it’s beautifully told and powerfully captures the essence of the human condition. It fails as an etiology of sin, but I’m not convinced that was at all its original purpose. And even if it was, that’s a philosophical failure, not an aesthetic one. > > Keep in mind, one doesn’t usually expect literary qualities from a folktale (_folktale_ and _literature_ being something like opposite points on a spectrum). Nevertheless, I would defy you to find any narrative story from the pre-Classical world that holds up as well according to modern literary tastes. It’s certainly a hell of a lot better than any of the business with Lot! I’m sorry, but the story of Adam and Eve is a logical mess from beginning to end. He creates two innocents that have no knowledge of good and evil, sets a couple of unguarded dangerous objects right before them(remember-they don’t know right from wrong), tells them not to touch the trees(they don’t know right from wrong) let’s loose an intelligent serpent ,and leaves them with the loaded weapon on the table with no babysitter in sight(so to speak). The serpent(who knows right from wrong) tells Adam and Eve(who, once again, _don’t_) that it’s okey dokey to eat the fruit. They have neither the experience, _nor the ability to tell right from wrong_, to know that he is a lying scumbucket, so they eat the fruit. The dude that left the gun on the table and the serpent in the playpen comes home, already knowing what the outcome was going to be because he’s a know-it-all of the first degree, [del]apologizes for putting them in such danger[/del], blames them for his own colossal fuck-up, and kicks them out of the house. Did I miss anything? ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/152 "2013-10-12T02:36:11Z")
No, you got it. I didn’t say it made sense, I said it was a well-written folktale. The human condition, with our ability to harm ourselves and those around us in ways no animal could ever conceive of, is indeed much like being a child left alone with a gun on the table. Again, it fails miserably as an explanation, but it works great as a folktale. ETA: You forgot that it’s _not_ the snake who’s a lying scumbucket, but God. Everything the snake says is perfectly true. Part of what makes it a great story. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/153 "2013-10-12T02:54:21Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > No, you got it. I didn’t say it made sense, I said it was a well-written folktale. The human condition, with our ability to harm ourselves and those around us in ways no animal could ever conceive of, is indeed much like being a child left alone with a gun on the table. Again, it fails miserably as an explanation, but it works great as a folktale. > > ETA: You forgot that it’s _not_ the snake who’s a lying scumbucket, but God. Everything the snake says is perfectly true. Part of what makes it a great story. Yes, but the serpent was smart enough to figure out what would happen when Daddy got home. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/154 "2013-10-12T03:47:37Z")
That’s funny, I’ve always thought of the snake as an “older brother” figure in that story. He knows exactly what to say to get the other kids in trouble without _actually_ doing anything wrong himself. ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/155 "2013-10-12T12:46:33Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > That’s funny, I’ve always thought of the snake as an “older brother” figure in that story. He knows exactly what to say to get the other kids in trouble without _actually_ doing anything wrong himself. Oh? Gen [3:14] > [@](#): > > The LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, cursed are you among all animals and among all wild creatures; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life.” Aloha ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/156 "2013-10-12T13:47:56Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > Oh? Gen [3:14] “Because you have done this, cursed are you among all animals and among all wild creatures; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life.” > > Aloha Started me thinking. Here’s Job > [@](#): > > 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. 2:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. 2:4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. > > 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown. And it get’s worse. 😉 Mf\*ker! God Himself successfully tempted by Satan to shit on a “perfect and an upright man”, certainly as bad as Adam and Eve’s “mortal sin” of a victimless crime. Has anyone considered that all the shit coming down globally today is the work of the God-Satan Conspiracy? It worked on Adam and Eve. Aloha ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/157 "2013-10-12T13:50:32Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > Started me thinking. > > Here’s Job And it get’s worse. 😉 > > Mf\*ker! God Himself successfully tempted by Satan to shit on a “perfect and an upright man”, certainly as bad as Adam and Eve’s “mortal sin” of a victimless crime. Has anyone considered that all the shit coming down globally today is the work of the God-Satan Conspiracy? > > Aloha That only works if you believe the serpent in the Garden of Eden to be Satan. ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/158 "2013-10-12T13:51:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That only works if you believe the serpent in the Garden of Eden to be Satan. You have an alternative interpretation? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/159 "2013-10-12T13:57:21Z")
> [@jsutter](#): > > You have an alternative interpretation? Don’t need one. From the quote _you_ provided: > [@](#): > > The LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, cursed are you among all animals and among all wild creatures; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life.” God himself described that serpent as an animal, not an angel, devil or any other supernatural entity. He then goes on to say that the serpent will crawl on its belly until it dies. Satan as described in Job doesn’t seem to be either cursed or a belly crawler, therefore they are two different characters. ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109/160 "2013-10-12T14:32:01Z")
I may have misinterpreted Alan Smithee > [@](#): > > That’s funny, I’ve always thought of the snake as an “older brother” figure in that story. He knows exactly what to say to get the other kids in trouble without actually doing anything wrong himself. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Don’t need one. From the quote _you_ provided:God himself described that serpent as an animal, not an angel, devil or any other supernatural entity. He then goes on to say that the serpent will crawl on its belly until it dies. Satan as described in Job doesn’t seem to be either cursed or a belly crawler, therefore they are two different characters. Perhaps God in His Wisdom kind of liked the Serpent’s idea of screwing with folk’s heads and rehabilitated him as Satan. Frankly, I don’t care. “There is no sin. The Son of God is free!” Aloha [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-original-sin/670109.md?page=9)