# What is Paganism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 8, 2009, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-paganism/495730 "2009-05-08T06:49:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-paganism/495730/1 "2009-05-08T06:49:10Z")
Over [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=516866) in the “I hate Being an Atheist” thread, paganism is mentioned.. But what exactly is a Pagan? Google isn’t really giving me much help, but it seems to me that Paganism is just another club of people wanting to identify with some sort of organized religion; you may as well be a Scientologist in my opinion. From Wiki: > [@](#): > > Paganism (from Latin paganus, meaning “country dweller, rustic”)[1] is the blanket term given to describe religions and spiritual practices of pre-Christian Europe, and by extension a term for polytheistic traditions or folk religion worldwide seen from a Western or Christian viewpoint. The term has various different meanings, though, from a Western perspective, it has modern connotations of a faith that has polytheistic,[2] spiritualist, animistic or shamanic practices, such as a folk religion, historical polytheistic or neopagan religion. Why Paganism? What is it exactly and why on Earth would anyone want to identify themselves thusly? Do you wear a toga and prance around ancient rocks or something? Please enlighten me. For the record I’m about as atheist as possible but certainly appreciate any and all religions. One’s esoteric beliefs are fundamental to humanity. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-paganism/495730/2 "2009-05-08T06:56:29Z")
Well, I must object to your comparison with Scientology. Pagan organizations won’t take all your money, brainwash you, force you into slave labor, and sue the balls off anybody in sight for revealing their secret fru-fru. That said, what you’re probably talking about is not paganism in the classical sense (like ancient Roman and Greek cults) but the various neopagan movements, like [Wicca](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca). They appeal to people who already have pantheistic tendencies, don’t like the Abrahamic religions, but want some sort of organized group to join and rituals to follow. Some organizations get quite elaborate with their rituals, too. People get really into that stuff. I find it equally as goofy as any other religion, but whatever floats your boat, ya know? ---
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-paganism/495730/3 "2009-05-08T08:18:03Z")
I started a thread on this a couple of years ago that might be of interest: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=403112&=pagan](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=403112&=pagan) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-paganism/495730/4 "2009-05-08T11:33:52Z")
Moving thread from IMHO to Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-paganism/495730/5 "2009-05-08T11:35:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Moving thread from IMHO to Great Debates. Why? The OP is looking for information, not a debate. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-paganism/495730/6 "2009-05-08T12:01:27Z")
My limited experience is that paganism is pretty much whatever the individual pagan wants it to be. > [@Leaffan](#): > > it seems to me that Paganism is just another club of people wanting to identify with some sort of organized religion; you may as well be a Scientologist in my opinion. I don’t think paganism is really organized, so aside from the money and the scamming, it would have that difference from Scientology. > [@](#): > > Why Paganism? What is it exactly and why on Earth would anyone want to identify themselves thusly? Do you wear a toga and prance around ancient rocks or something? When you put it that way, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-paganism/495730/7 "2009-05-08T12:44:30Z")
> [@Renee](#): > > I started a thread on this a couple of years ago that might be of interest: > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=403112&=pagan](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=403112&=pagan) The previous thread seems to be answering a lot of my questions. Thanks for that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-paganism/495730/8 "2009-05-08T13:27:52Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Why? The OP is looking for information, not a debate. Years of previous experience tell me that what the OP will get is debate. Those who claim to be Pagans will disagree with those who do not, and with themselves. People will point out the faults of other religions, others will point out the faults all religions, and respect will be demanded. In other words, the topic is religion-there will be debate. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-paganism/495730/9 "2009-05-08T13:49:09Z")
The problem is that ‘Paganism’ as such doesn’t really exist. It’s not a very meaningful word. It is originally a perjorative used by organized religion to refer to a more ignorant time before their religion came about. Neo-Pagans (read New Agers) came around and tried to ‘reclaim’ the word. The thing is it ends up being largely an excuse to make up a bunch of shit about what one believes. There is no unified paganism, no unified belief that falls under the aegis of paganism. From a Christian perspective for instance, Islam and Hinduism are paganism as well. From an Islamic perspective Christianity and Hinduism are paganism. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-paganism/495730/10 "2009-05-08T14:56:20Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The thing is it ends up being largely an excuse to make up a bunch of shit about what one believes. Isn’t that essentially what every religion is? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-paganism/495730/11 "2009-05-08T15:00:39Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Isn’t that essentially what every religion is? No, most religions are not based off of glorifying a perjorative devised by another religion as a catch-all for the beliefs of everyone else. Most major religions have in common that the individual IS NOT qualified to just say whatever they want. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-paganism/495730/12 "2009-05-08T15:15:40Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > No, most religions are not based off of glorifying a perjorative devised by another religion as a catch-all for the beliefs of everyone else. Most major religions have in common that the individual IS NOT qualified to just say whatever they want. “Quakers”, “Shakers” Anyway, you (and the OP) are making the mistake of assuming that “Paganism” (the word) means any specific religious practice or group. It’s a catch-all, much like “Hinduism” is a catch-all for the polytheistic beliefs of India. What we in the West think of as “Hinduism” is really a collection of different groups, to my understanding. Likewise, “Paganism” (or “Neo-Paganism”) is a collection of a large number of different belief groups, some no larger than a single practitioner, some with established organizations with 100s (at least) of members. It’s a lot looser than “Christianity” and its denominations, but it’s similar, with the caveat that there’s not so strong an overarching criterion (i.e., belief in Jesus as savior). In other words, “Paganism” isn’t A religion. It’s an umbrella term for a wide variety of religions. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-paganism/495730/13 "2009-05-08T15:26:48Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > “Quakers”, “Shakers” > > Anyway, you (and the OP) are making the mistake of assuming that “Paganism” (the word) means any specific religious practice or group. That’s actually in direct opposition to what I actually said. > [@](#): > > It’s a catch-all, much like “Hinduism” is a catch-all for the polytheistic beliefs of India. Hinduism is Paganism. Paganism is not LIKE Hinduism, because Hinduism is a subset of Pagan beliefs, IE, anything that is ‘not Christianity or Judaism’ is paganism. > [@](#): > > What we in the West think of as “Hinduism” is really a collection of different groups, to my understanding. Likewise, “Paganism” (or “Neo-Paganism”) is a collection of a large number of different belief groups, some no larger than a single practitioner, some with established organizations with 100s (at least) of members. It’s a lot looser than “Christianity” and its denominations, but it’s similar, with the caveat that there’s not so strong an overarching criterion (i.e., belief in Jesus as savior). You are right about hinduism but wrong about paganism, as hinduism would be considered a pagan belief. > [@](#): > > In other words, “Paganism” isn’t A religion. It’s an umbrella term for a wide variety of religions. It’s a derogatory term for every religion that isn’t Judeo-Christian specifically. In the modern new-agey context, it’s just a fluffy term to describe any sort of thing that someone wants to believe with no cohesion of belief at all. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-paganism/495730/14 "2009-05-08T16:16:15Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > … > > In the modern new-agey context, it’s just a fluffy term to describe any sort of thing that someone wants to believe with no cohesion of belief at all. And I wondered why I had trouble grasping what it was, specifically. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-paganism/495730/15 "2009-05-08T17:10:15Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > And I wondered why I had trouble grasping what it was, specifically. Often it involves some animism and nature worship. That seems to be a fairly mainstream new agey theme of people who claim to be ‘pagans’. ---
**Author:** ![Mariemarie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58f4c7/32.png) [@Mariemarie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mariemarie)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-paganism/495730/16 "2009-05-08T17:21:56Z")
When I was in 8th grade, I got points taken off a spelling test for capitalizing _pagan_. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-paganism/495730/17 "2009-05-08T19:53:34Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Often it involves some animism and nature worship. That seems to be a fairly mainstream new agey theme of people who claim to be ‘pagans’. Since there is no governing body, and no actual rules to determine who is and isn’t one of the chosen, pagan-wise, I think there is a pretty basic disconnect with your derisive and mildly hostile statement about those who ‘claim to be pagan’. Anyone that wishes to do so is, practically be definition, a pagan 100%. And while you may be correct in the original meaning, in the modern day (post 70’s, I think) most folks understand that pagan (or Pagan, if you prefer) is a generic term to describe the “new age” and “Earth Based” and “reconstructed” pre-christian or “traditional” faith systems. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-paganism/495730/18 "2009-05-08T20:02:35Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > Since there is no governing body, and no actual rules to determine who is and isn’t one of the chosen, pagan-wise, I think there is a pretty basic disconnect with your derisive and mildly hostile statement about those who ‘claim to be pagan’. Paganism isn’t a religion and should not be treated as one. Respect has nothing to do with it. It’s an insulting epithet. No one in history ever described themselves as ‘pagan’ until recently. > [@](#): > > Anyone that wishes to do so is, practically be definition, a pagan 100%. Right, it’s the ultimate in, “I am whatever I a say I am”, self-worshipping individualism., the real test is whether or not you will know more about a person’s religious beliefs by them telling you they are a Pagan than you would have otherwise. The answer is no, being told htat someone is a pagan doesn’t help you to understand what their beliefs are in any way, so it’s really a meaningless term. If someone tells me they are a Jew a Christian or a Muslim that tells me something. If they tell me they are a Hindu that tells me something. Telling me they are a pagan tells me nothing more than, “I have romanticized this put-down created by early Roman Christians.” > [@](#): > > And while you may be correct in the original meaning, in the modern day (post 70’s, I think) most folks understand that pagan (or Pagan, if you prefer) is a generic term to describe the “new age” and “Earth Based” and “reconstructed” pre-christian or “traditional” faith systems. And here you touch on the core of the nonsense involved in such a thing. There is no “reconstructed” pre-Christian or “traditional” faith systems. That’s abject nonsense. The term pagan referred to the religious and tribal beliefs of any tribal tradition, none of which considered themselves to be, ‘pagan’. Calling oneself a pagan today is like if in two-thousand years you ‘reconstructed’ the term, ‘illiterate moron’, into something romantic. Because that’s essentially what pagan meant. New Agers that consider themselves ‘pagans’ often try to refer to some notion of ancient tradition. Like they say they are a ‘Druid’ which means essentially they made up a whole bunch of crap and claimed that it’s what they think Druids believed back in the day. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-paganism/495730/19 "2009-05-08T20:17:38Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > From a Christian perspective for instance, Islam and Hinduism are paganism as well. From an Islamic perspective Christianity and Hinduism are paganism. > [@mswas](#): > > It’s a derogatory term for every religion that isn’t Judeo-Christian specifically. This is partially incorrect. It is more properly _non-Abrahamic_, i.e. the Catholic church at least considers [Muslims to be non-pagans](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11388a.htm). Similarly with Muslims - ‘Peoples of the Book’ are in a separate category from all others. Evangelicals may have a different take on things, but then some of them don’t consider _Catholics_ Christian ;). ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-paganism/495730/20 "2009-05-08T20:17:50Z")
No one described themselves as “queer” until the last decade or so, either. It was an insult, an epithet, a derogatory term. Are you going to tell all the people that identify as queer that they don’t exist, that they’re not queer, that they deserve no respect? I get that you are an offensive, probably fundie, Christian who believes that all other religions are wrong and hence ‘pagan’. I get that you are the absolute arbiter, or shall we say “god”, of what does and does not qualify as a religion. I get it. However, I should expect to never, ever, EVER hear you complain when people talk about the magic sky pixie, or how stupid Christianity is and what idiots people are for believing in obviously made-up garbage, or anything else of that ilk. Don’t expect people to respect you or your beliefs when you’ve made it so incredibly obvious that you have nothing but contempt for them and theirs. Just sayin’, is all. –redtail, Anti-denominational Existential Eclectic Zen Agnostic, but most definitely NOT a Pagan [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-paganism/495730.md?page=2)