I don’t follow Geller. All I know about him is what people have posted here and what I’ve read in the Targ & Puthoff report. I’ve always been skeptical about him. What’s necessary in his case is more rigerous, well-controlled testing, with better controls. Failing a test in front of Randi or on TV only means he failed a test. Whoop-te-do.
What, psychics aren’t human? Any human is subject to doubt, at any time. Any human can lose confidence in themselves. Happens all the time. Famous, accomplished athletes have a disturbing experience and go off their game, or get psyched out by their opponant
With every post you show more and more how ignorant and assumptive you are.
Which is why I don’t engage in it. I question everything. I assume nothing.
Years ago, I had a dream, a very wierd dream in which I went to my girlfriend’s house.
She invited me in, kissed me, then said, “Come into the living room, there’s somone I want you to meet.”
We went into the living room and an Inian man sat here in his boxer shorts, reading a newspaper. She said, “Ed, this is Robbie, a friend of my brothers.” He moved the newspaper to hold it in his lfet hand, half rose and extended his hand to shake mine. We shook hands, exchanged pleasantries, and we left the living room.
My gilfriend then asked if I was hungry, to which I replied affirmatively, and she said, “Come on, I’ll make you a ham sandwich.” as we headed toward the kitchen.
I’ve been writing down all my dreams for a very long time, and when I woke I wrote it down and thought no more about it.
Three days later I went to my girlfriend’s house and the entire scene unfolded exactly as I had dreamed it. Everything. From Robbie in his boxers, reading the newspaper in the living room down to the ham sandwich. Exactly. It was on the way into the kitchen that I recalled the dream (which had ended at that spot).
When I went back home I checked the dream, just to be sure it was exact.
How could I doubt, or explain away that this had occurred? I had the dated written record. I had the witness of my girlfriend. Something unusual happened. I didn’t then and I don’t now jump to conclusions about what it is, but I cannot deny that it is any more than I can deny the floor under my feet.
And that’s how I decide, out. In this case I toss it into the “real, but unknown origin” bin, to be researched as time allows.
Was it just an amazing coincidence? Not at that level of detail, and not when it occurred several other times, and each time had the three-day gap between dream and occurrance.
Some people have deja vu. Likely they don’t write down their dreams, either. Few people do. Maybe the same thing is happening to them as well.
I don’t know what it was, but I know it’s ‘real.’
I know this probably doesn’t fit into your experience of reality, so, in order to maintain your sanity you have to either call me a liar, or say I’m mistaken somehow, tell me how memory plays tricks on us, invoke Occam and his handy little razor, call me names, like “woo-woo.” Anything, desperately, to maintain your narrow world view.
“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, then are dreamt of in our philosophies.”
So I allow for possibilities.
I’ve had a few encounters with the unknown that have stood the test of investigation and time. Our science has been unable to provide more than speculation. I don’t jump to the conclusion that I’m psychic, or that I can tell the future; all I know is that it happened.
I don’t think I’m psychic. Or at least I don’t believe I’m more psychic than anyone else. I can’t re-create this experience on demand; it hasn’t happened extremely often. I’ve investigated it as much as I can, shared it with researchers (we agreed, testing it would be prohibatively expensive), put up with real woo-woo explanations from some folks I can only assume are either deluded or… well, something. I’ve even had several unsatisfying several-hour-long conversations with accomplished theoretical physicists about the nature of time and the possibilities of perception – it went way over my head.
I can already imagine the responses I’m going to get here. Everything from a know-it-all, “It’s simple you imagined it.” to a dumb, “It didn’t happen.” and everything in between. Then some folks who will try to poke holes in it, believing if they invalidate one point (“ah, but did you eat the sandwich?”) that the whole thing falls apart.
Most PSI is like that. It happens, it’s gone, you can’t recreate it. That’s the PSI I accept the possibility of, not the nonsense that Bryan comes up with.
That’s the PSI I allow for, he PSI I research, the PSI I believe we will some day be able to explain, the PSI I keep my mind open to.
Ekers can go play with his spoon theory and deny the effectiveness of doubt as a way of disproving PSI. More and more he shows his ignorance, and his arrogance.
There’s an old, old saying:
“The man who thinks he knows everything is really the one who knows nothing, for in assuming he knows all the answers, he cuts himself off from learning, growth, and ultimately life.” Those are my detractors.
And what about you, out? Do you reject the possibility of PSI with a religious fervor simply because you haven’t experienced it, and it can’t be easily placed under a microscope? Or do you allow that there maybe are some things that you do not know yet.
May I ask what exactly you wrote down, Snake? I have had experiences myself which have conformed closely to past dreams, but I came to realise that I was projecting specific real-life details into the dream-memories, which were actually far more vague than the supposed real-life situation which followed them. Meeting an Indian friend of your partner called Robbie might well crop up in a dream if you had a priori learned that an Indian guy called Robbie was somehow part of your partner’s life. The specific details like the ham sandwich, boxer shorts and newspaper might not have been written down but instead projectedby you in precisely the same manner as in that research on false memories I alluded to in another thread.
We all entertain possibilities, Snake. I am asking you to entertain the possibility that what you dreamed did not happen in real life: that there were only passing similarities and that your mind has “filled in the blanks” a posteriori.
I still have to wonder how you get out of bed in the morning. I’m glad to see that you freely admit to what you’re doing, in any event.
As I’ve said before, I don’t reject the possibility. But until someone demonstrates, under controlled conditions, that there’s anything even remotely unusual happening, I assign it to the “too improbable to warrant consideration” category. Along with the Tooth Fairy, for the same reason. Do you accept that the Tooth Fairy might be real? If not, why not? Are you going to spend some time researching the question?
I always do.
I can’t really comment on your ham sandwich story, because all we really have is an unverifiable anecdote. And that’s precisely the problem with all of the “seekers” who want to spend time and money pursuing psi, remote viewing, ghosts, alien abductions, etc., etc. All we ever get are unverifiable anecdotes. The accumulated non-evidence leads inexorably to the “bunk” conclusion.
That was one of my first considerations. It didn’t hold. I had never heard of Robbie; didn’t know he existed. The details match was exact. First dreamed, then written down in detail, then experienced, then checked back.
But sure, meat you just go explain it away, like anything else that doesn’t fit.
Not until you answer that very simple question. Do you believe that there really is a Tooth Fairy out there (one who is NOT simply the parent of the child)? Do you not think that there’s a possibility of this? You’ve said you don’t rule out any possibilities. How about this one? After all, we have the testimony of millions upon millions of children who can tell you that they left a tooth under the pillow, and in the morning, there was cash there in its place.
What’s being shoved down your throat, in this instance, are your own words. How do they taste?
I am seeking information on which to base my determination of the most likely explanation. Would it be possible for you to transcribe here, verbatim, what you wrote immediately after the dream? (Of course, only you could know if you were telling the truth in this respect.)
I think the problem here is that apparantly to psychics, it does happen all the time. I don’t know of a single case where the psychic could perform adequately in the prescence of a watchful skeptic. If professional athletes had records like this, all games would end in zero-zero ties. From this, the only safe conclusions are:
[ul][li]PSI is bullshit.[/li][li]PSI is like some ultra-delicate hothouse orchid that withers under the slightest breeze or ray of errant sunshine, and can only be observed from a distance by people who hold their breath, lest they cause it to slip away from looking at it too hard and making it shy.[/ul][/li]
When I say PSI shouldn’t be affected, it’s with the understanding that even though doubt exists, athletes prevail quite often and there is no reason why a psychic, assuming his claimed abilities are real, can’t do the same.
No. I have rigerously investigated the case of the tooth fairy and have found that it is an admitted fraud perpetrated by parents on innocent children. In those cases where the subject (child) has insisted on the truthfulness, careful questioning of the parents reveals the fraud. In cases where parents (or their substitutes) are unavailable, no tooth is removed, and no coins are left.
Individual cases have been found where money has been left under the pillow and the tooth has not been retrieved.
But that’s OK, you can keep believing. It doesn’t hurt anyone for you to have your beliefs.
Oh it’s very possible.
If I believed in your veracity, I wouldn’t hesitate. Even though I don’t recall you deliberately trashing me recently (in fact, in the pit you seemed quite restrained), I think you can understand my hesitance, as I think we have had nasty run-in’s before. You’re certainly not on my “buddy” list. And I hope you can appreciate the amount of work this would involve for me.
I’d have to go digging through my storage area to find that yearbook dated 1971, (or was it 1970? or '72?) and flip through the 365 pages (each) till I found the right one.
And what’s the payback? What do I get out of it?
I transcribe it and you bring it into question anyway? (as you indicate above?)
In any case, I’m not going to do it here, in the pit.
Now we’re getting somewhere. So you’ve totally dismissed the possibility that in at least a few cases, out of millions, it might actually be something miraculous taking place. You’ve closed your mind to this, right? So how much “rigorous investigation” of psi will be required before we’re allowed to conclude that it’s all either a fraud or simple confusion? Are several decades’ worth of controlled experiments that have produced no reproducable or statistically significant results enough? How long do we have to go on studying?
This is the kind of schtick that makes other posters get very, very tired of you. It’s intellectually dishonest, it’s not clever, and it’s not persuasive. You know full well that I’m not advocating belief in the Tooth Fairy. I’m trying to illustrate how your approach to “paranormal” activity can’t rule out the truth of the Tooth Fairy. I believe this reveals why your approach is absurd, because it leads to absurd results. Stop pulling this childish stunt. It’s played.
No, there isn’t. There has never been any evidence produced under controlled conditions that anyone has any psychic powers.
There are two categories of psychic: outright frauds, and those who point at the occasional coincidence (and the laws of probability tell us that sometimes, remarkable coincidences will occur), and say, “See, I’m psychic!” The phrase “real psychic” is an oxymoron.
I know your reality is flexible, Snake, but this isn’t the Pit (at least, not yet), so I daresay that last bit, unoriginal and hackneyed though it was, constitutes a violation of the GD “no insult” rule.
Ah, but that’s just the cases you know about. Certainly you haven’t been able to investigate ALL cases world-wide. Couldn’t there be just one case where there is a genuine tooth fairy? We all know that some tooth fairies cheat, but they can’t ALL cheat, can they? Just because you have investigated some and found them to be frauds doesn’t mean they ALL are, does it? And it only takes one real fairy (no jokes, now) to prove there is a paranormal reason for the tooth fairy myth, right?
To make a point, all the following quotes are from Snakespirit, verbatim, from posts in this thread. Except: items in curly braces {} represent words changed from the original paranormal term to “the tooth fairy”:
If you were to look through very single correspondance we have had with one another, through the paranormal, firearm murder rates, philosophy, religion and politics, I assure you that you will find me as reasonable and respectful as I am now. If I was ever “nasty” I genuinely apologise.
We get to find out whether you really wrote all those details down, or if there is a more convincing neuropsychological explanation. Without the relevant information, my guess is that as you left the kitchen you experienced deja vu. This occurs when the parahippocampal gyrus, which judges “familiarity”, briefly treats the incoming sensory input as incredibly familiar (sometimes triggering epilepsy). To explain this malfunction, we think “Wow! I must have dreamed this exact thing!”.
These experiences can be incredibly convincing, to the extent that we say to ourselves “if I’d written that dream down exactly, I could prove I could see the future!”. But the absolutely essential point is that we didn’t write it down (or, at least, whatever dream we correlate it with which we did write down is far more vague than the subsequent event). This is why I’d be very interested to see exactly what you did write down: I suspect the actual entry might surprise you as well.
Very serious. To understand the entire universe and everything in it, including convincing personal experiences.
If you’re really that serious, contact me via email. I’m hardly going to hang around where I’m being abused for sport.
I dropped back in here just for you Meat, so far you got the benefit of the doubt.
